OOC Chat

[Ramano]

I consider all of this discussion to be pre-battle "trash talk", so this is the last time I'll address the PDF issue.

Dem has two choices:
A. Begin Milestone 3 and scrap Eriadu's ENTIRE PDF (platforms, ships, and ground facilities) to replace it with his own.
B. Let Eriadu's PDF stay as-is until he wants to begin Milestone 3.

Posted directly from Hales post. If you even begin milestone 3 EVERYTHING is scrapped there. Not partially, not specifically, everything. Which is why I told you that you should void sending the VSDs at all. Yeah, they are better then the space facilities, but you loose ALL of the PDF when beginning milestone 3, ground and space.

And yes, I understand what your saying, but you shipped PDF here. You cant keep the PDF and send more PDF in, its an either or situation. You get whats there, or you get what you send there. Trust me, ive already tried this at Bakura, its a no go.

Edit: And for the record at Eriadu, I have nothing in DSZ-1, can confirm with Hale as I sent him a message of my ship positions, just making sure to cover my ass. When your going to engage the best player in the game, you make sure to dot your I's and cross your T's.

Edit Edit: And that is a hell of a fleet by the way. Shame im gunna have to kill it.

[SWSF Hoppus]

I agree that the rule isn't well put (the little niggles in semantics and syntax when doing a close reading and applying it in the moment). However, logically and in the spirit of the rule, I agree with both Hale and Ramano. You either have to decide the rule means for a 4 day window there are double PDFs (until space pdfs are placed and a fleet depot is completed) or that by beginning the process all of the units are wiped clean and at milestone 4, you are not the owner nothing left to do. The milestone 4 bit needs to be rewritten, the part about units being wiped out moved into milestone 3 to clarify the language.

EDIT: And they MUST be wiped clean, because some worlds have 8 facilities and to build a Depot or Embassy, you'd need to destroy one!


EDIT: Also the $1k isnt for scrapping, its the mission complete bonus, so it isn't that youre getting paid to destroy their facilities.

[SWSF Hale]

Regardless of my own words, I cannot rewrite the rules -- which have more weight than my interpretation of them. Clearly Milestone 3 suggests that you replace the Space PDF, while Milestone 4 suggests that you replace the Ground PDF, although "ALL" can be ambiguous if used out of place/order.

The rules need to be rewritten such that in Milestone 3 the player must rebuild everything, but now that we are in the middle of a battle that kind of ruling would not be fair.. so to make a compromise:

1. Eriadu's former SPACE PDF must go.
2. The GROUND PDF remains as-is based on the requirements of Milestone 4, which Dem has not proceeded to complete, nor can he since the system is now "in conflict". That means that 1 Alpha + 3 Beta's can be used by Dementat.

[SWSF Hoppus]

Milestone #4 is effectively the end of the mission. It isn't "reach milestone 4, then begin these tasks (build something etc)", but rather "you reached #4 and you are done now if you built the shit you're supposed to".

This, in tandem with the idea that to build a Depot on a planet with 8 Facilities (like Corellia) you would need to have the ground PDF wiped clean.

For that reason, I think the interpretation that all PDF units are wiped clean is more in spirit with what the rule intended. But I'll leave this up to the GM, HOWEVER, I think whatever is ruled here needs to be the rule going forward. IE from now on, during the milestone 3 to 4 gap, defenses remain intact until you replace something - ie space remains in tact until you bring a space defense unit, and ground remains intact until you bring or build a ground unit. Yeah?

[Dementat]

Actually, Milestone#4 requires I complete a sector palace. I agree with the #3 "space is scrapped," #4 "ground is scrapped" approach. Hey, this is how we find things that need correction.

[Ramano]

But he started building something on the ground, would that in essence be him replacing the stuff on the ground as he could not start building until he had scrapped the old stuff?

This is what im getting at, he's trying to use the rules through a loose interpretation, that is clearly not intended, to get the usage of BOTH what he's sent in, and whats already there. From what the rules say, as soon as you send ANYTHING into a planet, ALL of its PDF is scrapped, as was ruled on me back at Bakura in July. Again, feel free to read through the posts on pages 58-62 in the OOC thread on this. Its already been ruled upon before, and it was ruled IF you send anything in, you loose EVERYTHING thats there. As the post states, it "evaporates". In fact fuck it, here, i'll go get the post.

[Ramano]

This is all on page 60 of the OOC if you would like to go confirm it is there and unmodified.

Re: GCW: OOC
? Reply #888 on: July 21, 2012, 08:32:14 pm ?
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Ok so reading through the diplomacy rules, for the #3 milestone it says you have to fully replace the PDF, a few questions about this.

A) What happens to the current PDF. For example, Bakura has a Dreadnaught. I cant foresee this ship just disappearing into the air simply because the planet is under my protection. What about space installations?

B) Can we use the standing PDF in the system as part of the over-all PDF replacement?

C) Can we scrap the existing PDF/Installations if we are not allowed to keep them?

D) Unless of course your Storyline was dependent upon the protection aspect being the big selling point such as mine, why would you need to touch the PDF to begin with? Take Dantooine for example, say someone decided to take it diplomatically, what the hell would you need a 7 ship/23CP defense for 1000 people for? I mean, im sure those people would praise you like a god for the protection, but it seems a bit over-kill for such a low value world.

Edit: Sorry to change the topic but I assumed in-game questions would take priority over a debate on laws we have no power to change.

? Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 08:35:39 pm by Ramano ?

Re: GCW: OOC
? Reply #889 on: July 21, 2012, 10:12:05 pm ?
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Quote from: Ramano on July 21, 2012, 08:32:14 pm
Ok so reading through the diplomacy rules, for the #3 milestone it says you have to fully replace the PDF, a few questions about this.

A) What happens to the current PDF. For example, Bakura has a Dreadnaught. I cant foresee this ship just disappearing into the air simply because the planet is under my protection. What about space installations?

B) Can we use the standing PDF in the system as part of the over-all PDF replacement?

C) Can we scrap the existing PDF/Installations if we are not allowed to keep them?

D) Unless of course your Storyline was dependent upon the protection aspect being the big selling point such as mine, why would you need to touch the PDF to begin with? Take Dantooine for example, say someone decided to take it diplomatically, what the hell would you need a 7 ship/23CP defense for 1000 people for? I mean, im sure those people would praise you like a god for the protection, but it seems a bit over-kill for such a low value world.

i probbed with a few similar questions, based on my understanding (per Hales answers), it pretty much all disappears and you have to replace it.  But you use CRVs, build 7 CRVs for free, and send them to the planet in question.  This fulfills the 23CPor7Ship PDF Fleet requisite.  Yes you lost the systems default defense fleet, but replacing it doesn't really cost you anything.  Facilities disappear per Milestone 4.  Only shit that remains is "Known Features".  but there lies the built in dynamic, you have to choose if you want to bring a planet to full membership of not.  You can just leave it at Milestone #2 and get the minimum bonus w/o having to invest anything else or lose the planets defenses.  Then if someone else tries to attack, it's still got it's own defenses, plus you got a relationship with it anyway/IC excuse to intervene
? Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 10:14:35 pm by Eidolon ?

Re: GCW: OOC
? Reply #890 on: July 21, 2012, 10:26:33 pm ?
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We are allowed to do that?

Re: GCW: OOC
? Reply #892 on: July 21, 2012, 10:56:08 pm ?
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Yes we are allowed its part of the fun of this game - the idea of having facilities/investments on worlds without having full standing armies. They make nice targets for enemies and fun storylines for battles

[Ramano]

This was the ruling about Bakura back in July in regards to standing PDF vs replacing it. By this, Dem has no, zero, ziltch, nada, nothing, for PDF other then what he sent in.

Edit: And I will take great offense to him being told "well, your getting double teamed so we'll allow it and change the rules later." I spoke up about people teaming up and was told for all intents and purposes "fuck off and recruit someone then." So, I do apologize but I really find no justification to feel sorry about it now. I also said, I cant count how many times, not to send anything in yet if you were getting PDF control of the planet. I told him about this, told everyone about this, now your telling me "oh there was a misunderstanding". I warned you about the misunderstanding days before it happened, you cant turn around and use that as an excuse now. I also allowed him a free re-post of it after he did it, and still he pushed the issue, told me I was a moron due to UCR calculations.

Im sorry, you dug this hole and I say you should have to be buried in it now.

[SWSF Hoppus]

Okay, the rule is pretty clear actually.

Milestone #2 [8 Days]: Host System permanently joins the IMPNET; on your next Action Day and every one after that, this system will credit 100 KCs to your Account.
Milestone #3 [12 Days]: Host System agrees to become a conditional Municipality System and Protectorate of the New Republic. Required Actions: Build a New Republic Embassy on the system in an open G-grid. Also, fully replace their Space PDF Fleet (23 CP/7-ships), which can be done with stock units; once the Embassy and Replacement PDF is completed, this Milestone will be done.
Milestone #4 [16 Days]: Host System agrees to become a Member System of the New Republic. All Space and Ground facilities on the planet are immediately scrapped and the System transfers 1000 KCs to your Account. Required Actions: Build a New Republic Sector Operations Base to replace the Host System's Alpha-class Command Operations Center. Once the RASOB is completed, the Host System is officially under your control as a player, and you can build new facilities at your leisure.

The rules say he has to replace the PDF FLEET (not pdf structures, which are in place yet). AND to build a Depot to complete the #3 milestone. He hasn't done the latter, so the system is still just a part of IMPNET and not a conditional member.

Now this brings up a question to Hale's OTHER ruling, that the system forces are Dems to control.

So far Dem has only completed #2, he has not completed #3 because there is no depot. So this system is part of the IMPNET but not a conditional municipality system.

So the system is half in the bag and the Imperials have no ground presence, just brought more ships to defend the world with.

Would the ground fight for the empire, there being no imperial facilities on the surface yet and with the system not entirely signed up, not even conditionally, to be a full member of the Empire?


EDIT: Clearly, we need to say what each stage means - ie a IMPNET sytem will give you X support in conflict, a conditional member world X support, and full member is a 100% support... in teh future. right now those stages mean nothing in the game itself when it comes to combat.

[SWSF Hale]

This all sounds convoluted right now but I think the rules (which need to be re-worded after this) plus my previous rulings are rather clear on the matter.

After this battle is over, I will rewrite the rules such that Milestone 3 is Space PDF, and Milestone 4 is Ground PDF... for both Conquest and Diplomacy.

Other than that, there isn't really any more discussion on the matter at this point. If Dem was building a Fleet Depot on the Ground, that was in accordance with Milestone 3 - thus the rest of the Ground PDF remains until the Sector Palace begins construction.

It looks like this is going to be a fun battle (at least from my observational vantage point). I will mediate stuff as it happens since we're dealing with big fleet on fleet action.

[Ramano]

So what your saying exactly, is the next time I do a diplomacy mission, so long as I never build and RSOB I can have ALL of the ground PDF of the planet, + anything I send in or build myself? That will be good to know for Mustafar and Naboo, lol.

Im just kind of riled up because this was all discussed months ago, agreed upon, but now that it actually effects someone, oh well, we are gunna change everything around mid battle. Furthermore im getting a little tired of having rules in place, but then having the rules ripped apart because "Well to me this means this." Quite honestly, it doesnt matter what it means to "you".. These rules were supposed to have been built so that they were not open to interpretation. I think its about time people start being punished for this shit as its getting a bit too convenient, "well I thought the rules meant this?" Sorry, no, thats not what they mean, fix your stuff, as I am told so often.

I mean, im not trying to start something here, Hale has ruled and his ruling will be upheld. But, you have to see this from mine and Hops perspective, this is out right bullshit. We had a plan, in place, but due to some "new interpretations" of rules, our entire attack now is doomed to failure. He should have had no PDF, he should ONLY have his fleet, and there should be NOTHING on that planet as far as ground defenses, thats how the timing was planned, in accordance with all rules. What ever happened to telling people "No, thats not what it means" and leaving it at that?

And my big problem with this is it is clearly not in the interest of how the rules were written. The whole point of having to scrap the current defenses at a planet is so there is that time period in which you've left yourself open. Thats what the spirit of that rule was written for. But now, because Dem is getting ready to loose something finally, and because he has some kind of law degree and knows how to argue, the rules mean nothing and we are gunna re-write everything so that he doesnt get pounded the way he should have for starting a diplomacy mission that the only point of it in the first place was to get out of loosing his fleet at Thyferra. He makes bad decision after bad decision and now we are going to "re-word" rules to protect him. Its not right.

Edit: Here is a thought, how about we add a rule to the missions that you are not allowed to "half-complete" a mission. Once you start a mission, the mission progresses, whether you do the stuff or not, and if you dont meet the requirements in the time frame, the mission fails? What your doing now is adding loopholes to circumvent the mission rules, which I cant find a point to. Whats the point of having the missions if we are going to go ahead and develop everything to circumvent them now?

[SWSF Hoppus]

Hale: I wouldn't say its clear, you've made contradicting rulings.

I think it'd be best for us to be allowed to void our hyperspace jumps as such and iron out the rules exactly. I am irritated as well but I can see the logic in deciding the way Hale has posted from reading the rule.

But as we entered based on the ruling of Hale - all or nothing, one or the other - I'd like us to be given the optoin to void the jump and sort it out.


For future rules: why not just simplify the milestones?

#1 - 100 KC/month and its a member of treaty. This means it will defend space and defend on the surface so long as you have units in space or on the surface (you could land troops). Once your presence is removed in battle, the world goes neutral again and any sim starts from 0 again.
#2 - Joins and all of its units join as part of your sim (never been a fan of destroying everything). You can scrap units and build new shit on the surface if you need the space. You can scrap anything  in space and rebuild if you want.

[Ramano]

Fuck it, if you already read this post, just dont worry about it. I will deal with the bullshit ruling, and still crush every fucking thing he has out there! Do you hear me Dem, KING FUCKING KONG AINT GOT SHIT ON ME!!

[SWSF Hoppus]

Actually that is in the rules under the space grid, and always has been. Sorry rambo.

WTF?!?!?!

? Sent to: Ramano on: Today at 07:52:43 am ?
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If you exit hyperspace, you can't move anymore.
If you move into the A-Ring from anywhere, you can't move anymore.
If you move INTO Deep Space, you can't move anymore.


So if you exited hyperspace and then moved in the C-Ring in the same post -- that is illegal.

When the fuck did that become a rule!? That has not only never been discussed, it has never had anything said about it at all?! Not a post, not a notification, nothing. No way, that dont fly. You cant just institute rules and not tell anyone, even as a GM. And if thats going to be the new rule, it needs to be lumped into the Nov 1st rule update with the rest of it. As far as im concerned, this battle should happen with the current rules, regardless of the outcome, and all Dem should have is what Hale has ruled is legal there, no more argument one way or the other until Nov 1st.

[SWSF Hoppus]

Hyperspace ~ When exiting hyperspace in a non-friendly system, all ships must do so in the DEEP SPACE ZONES. After exiting hyperspace all movement points are exhausted.  If the system is friendly or previously scanned, you can exit hyperspace in up to the B-Ring

Thats the rule