OOC Chat

[Ramano]

Now Hale... you have a decision to make regarding sacrifice. After taking down my Elite X-Wings on CSP you MMMAAAYYY, and I stress may, still have enough damage left to kill my flagship, but it will require you ISD II to fire... if that ship fires, by my understanding of the rules, you cant enter HS, meaning regardless of what you kill, you lose your ISD, which by cost, is pretty much as irreplaceable as my RHD.

However, what you must also keep in mind is if you lose your ISD II, your entire faction is basically defenseless. If I lose my RHD... thats not even the most powerful ship in my fleet, merely the most expensive.

So you gotta ask yourself here, do you turn around and enter HS thus saving your ship, or do you lose your entire fleet to kill my not really so important flagship? Ahh... perhaps today IS a good day to die eh commodore?

Although you do hold a firm tractor lock on my NSBC, do keep in mind, you've not disabled it, and every 24hrs all the way to your planet its going to be shooting at you. I dont see you having enough time to make it home with all the current damage.

[Ramano]

And he charges down the lane, he jukes right, drops back... and BOOM goes the dynamite.

[SWSF Hale]

DOWN GOES FRASIER!

[Ramano]

Uhh, ok. So are we really allowing people to just basically keep fielding ships at a battle so long as we have PDF somewhere? With all due respect, I think we need to have rules instituted that a battle has to officially end before you can start shipping reinforcements there. Otherwise literally battles could never end so long as we have PDF left somewhere. Otherwise whats to stop me from throwing my entire fleet into PDF duty and coming back, with full firepower, AND an MC-90.

So, like I suggested, instead of opening up a whole new door of abuse, how about we just say a battle has to officially end before you can send new stuff? And for the record, yes thats what I was doing as I didnt see how it could be legal to come back in with a 23CP MC-90 when I still have 14CP of fleet still fighting. Trust me when I say, this is a door we dont want to open.

Also, perhaps im missing something here, but dont communications travel at 2x HS speed? I ask because at that speed its 6 days from Thyferra to Rothana, so how could they know the ISD was destroyed when I only killed it 2 days ago? As I said, more asking for my own information then calling you out on anything, but the way I understand it, it should still be 4 days before Rothana finds out, then another 6 days to get back, and thats all provided we dont rule the battle has to end before a player can send more stuff.

And do keep in mind, this is only for individual players im complaining about. Basically what im saying is 1 on 1 player action has to end before either of the involved players can send more stuff. Other players would be able to enter and reinforce still, but as I explained earlier, allowing single players to pretty much infinitely keep shipping reinforcements so long as they loose something and have PDF available somewhere is a terrible idea. As I said, if we allow that, I have enough PDF to basically keep any battle going on forever.

However on a more IC note, if you surrender, I give you my word I will NOT fire on you while you leave the system. In that case, the battle would be over, and you could form up a new fleet and send back anything you like without any complaint from me. Do keep in mind though, as soon as this battle ends, im putting my whole fleet on PDF and you got 45hrs till the MC-90 gets here and I haul the ISD to Endor to repair it and stick it on PDF. Really though, I dont see you being able to stop that short of changing the rules to see it happen, which I can assure you, I will consider that to be cheating.

Edit: On another note, dont be stupid man. Ive done the math, you are outnumbered on every front, and I can easily transfer those troops/vehicles on the Nefrane onto the Cybean and put them on the ground, which you dont have the firepower to stop. You can-not-win-here unless Dem or Gall shows up. Dont throw away perfectly usable and expensive stuff. Yeah, those SGAFs are free, the first time, you have to pay to rebuild them, that wing of T/As arnt cheap either. Im offering you safe passage out of the system, take it and reform your battlegroup. Ive no wish to end the game yet, I just got it into my head to tolerate the mission system. Go back to your stronghold, and lets have a flashpoint so everyone can get some much needed funds.

Edit Edit: And just making sure im covered from all angles on this, the current fleet set up you have with what you sent from Rothana is illegal. You will have more then 3 squads of fighters/aux craft without a capital ship to house them. As the battle sits, their capital ship was destroyed so obviously they would still be legal, but if you form up a new fleet, anything else that enters the system would be an illegal fleet by my understanding of the rules.

[Ramano]

Oh, and I thought this sounded funny to add into my next post if you dont leave.

The Cybean, watching the shuttle and escape pods abandon the Avenger moved to C-1, and quickly locked tractor beams on them. After being hauled onboard, the Lord General was taken into custody, shot with a stun blast, shackled feet and hands, gagged, and placed inside of a cloth sack and tied off with a bow, placed on a shuttle and sent back to imperial space UPS style.

UPS Delivery Man: "Emperor Dem, I have a package for you, first class delivery from Ramano of the Rebellion against the Empire. He wishes you a merry christmas."

The delivery man drops the large cloth bag on the ground at the Emperors feet.

Edit: And im kind of disappointed in being a rebel character as I could easily capture your character and make one of my legendary torture SLs as I did in GRU. Luckily for you, its against my current storyline. Ramano this go around is efficient, not very concerned with collateral damage, but not a monster. Anf for the record, I can post at any time. I will allow you until 1pm eastern time to pull your fleet out of the system before I send your character back to the emperor gift wrapped. I agree to allow you to over-ride the posting times to pull out your remaining vessels in an SL.

[SWSF Hale]

There's a lot you said so let me see if I can't break it down point-by-point:

Uhh, ok. So are we really allowing people to just basically keep fielding ships at a battle so long as we have PDF somewhere? With all due respect, I think we need to have rules instituted that a battle has to officially end before you can start shipping reinforcements there. Otherwise literally battles could never end so long as we have PDF left somewhere. Otherwise whats to stop me from throwing my entire fleet into PDF duty and coming back, with full firepower, AND an MC-90.

The only thing that's stopping you from doing this is money. If you can afford to have MC-90s ready to go at various systems on PDF, then you can keep sending stuff in. In game with so few players, there has to be a more creative way to field more ships into battle without increasing the player Command Point limit to a point of absurdity.

So, like I suggested, instead of opening up a whole new door of abuse, how about we just say a battle has to officially end before you can send new stuff? And for the record, yes thats what I was doing as I didnt see how it could be legal to come back in with a 23CP MC-90 when I still have 14CP of fleet still fighting. Trust me when I say, this is a door we dont want to open.

Per the rules you only have 23 CPs (+1 CP Admiral bonus), so with that VNSD at Thyferra that's 14. Since the RHD left the system you could send 10 CPs worth of additional ships to the system. So long as at no point you exceeded 23CPs in the current battle or with ships under your command in hyperspace, I don't see a problem here. It's not like in football with "too many players on the field"... my ISD-II is DISABLED and DERELICT. It's done. By abandoning command of the ship, my character can use his command points in other capacities.

Also, perhaps im missing something here, but dont communications travel at 2x HS speed? I ask because at that speed its 6 days from Thyferra to Rothana, so how could they know the ISD was destroyed when I only killed it 2 days ago? As I said, more asking for my own information then calling you out on anything, but the way I understand it, it should still be 4 days before Rothana finds out, then another 6 days to get back, and thats all provided we dont rule the battle has to end before a player can send more stuff.

HOLONET is instantaneous. I have Imperial Palaces at Rothana and Bastion. Imperial Palaces are equipped with HOLONET. Sometimes it pays to be the Empire.

And do keep in mind, this is only for individual players im complaining about. Basically what im saying is 1 on 1 player action has to end before either of the involved players can send more stuff. Other players would be able to enter and reinforce still, but as I explained earlier, allowing single players to pretty much infinitely keep shipping reinforcements so long as they loose something and have PDF available somewhere is a terrible idea. As I said, if we allow that, I have enough PDF to basically keep any battle going on forever.

It's not infinite. Granted, if we had one battle where two players kept sending in stock units over and over... this would be infinite. But I only have so much money to spend. And only so much care to give over Thyferra that at some point I will cut my losses and back off. I chose to keep fighting.

However on a more IC note, if you surrender, I give you my word I will NOT fire on you while you leave the system. In that case, the battle would be over, and you could form up a new fleet and send back anything you like without any complaint from me. Do keep in mind though, as soon as this battle ends, im putting my whole fleet on PDF and you got 45hrs till the MC-90 gets here and I haul the ISD to Endor to repair it and stick it on PDF. Really though, I dont see you being able to stop that short of changing the rules to see it happen, which I can assure you, I will consider that to be cheating.

The only rules governing the course of action here are the Space PDF Fleets and the Fleet Reserve Force, which specifically state that I can pull any ships from a PDF fleet and put them into my main battlefleet without any penalty. There's nothing stopping you from pulling your Thyferra fleet back to Endor, putting it on PDF, and them bringing in your MC-90. Under the current rules that is permissible. At that point I would scuttle my ISD-II with the ships I'm bringing in and then retreat... so if that's how you want to play it... so be it.

Edit: On another note, dont be stupid man. Ive done the math, you are outnumbered on every front, and I can easily transfer those troops/vehicles on the Nefrane onto the Cybean and put them on the ground, which you dont have the firepower to stop. You can-not-win-here unless Dem or Gall shows up. Dont throw away perfectly usable and expensive stuff. Yeah, those SGAFs are free, the first time, you have to pay to rebuild them, that wing of T/As arnt cheap either. Im offering you safe passage out of the system, take it and reform your battlegroup. Ive no wish to end the game yet, I just got it into my head to tolerate the mission system. Go back to your stronghold, and lets have a flashpoint so everyone can get some much needed funds.

I've done the math as well, and I've considered it all a loss. It's a war of attrition now. I've already lost the ISD-II. If I can make your capturing of Thyferra all the more painful, that's the game I'm going to play.

Edit Edit: And just making sure im covered from all angles on this, the current fleet set up you have with what you sent from Rothana is illegal. You will have more then 3 squads of fighters/aux craft without a capital ship to house them. As the battle sits, their capital ship was destroyed so obviously they would still be legal, but if you form up a new fleet, anything else that enters the system would be an illegal fleet by my understanding of the rules.

That's a valid point and something I overlooked. The current units I have in the system are capable of forming into a Fleet Escort Group. I will create the Fleet Escort in my next post and send the over-capacity units into hyperspace.

I'll cut you an In-Character Deal in my next post to allow for desirable outcome. I don't want this battle to turn into a sim-breaking event, so give me a couple days and I'll be out of your hair.

[Dementat]

I feel I must agree with Ram. My proposal would be:
1) No more than your total CP limit may be utilized in any single battle. If entering battle with less than limit, again, you could bring more ships later provided no more CP enter the battle than your total allotment.

2) No ship may leave a battle and then return. This prevents leaving the system and returning with new compliments of fighters, troops, and auxiliary.

3) Define "battle" as full control over the planet (i.e. base).

[SWSF Hale]

All good points and things worth mentioning explicitly in the rules. When Thyferra is over I'll add some new rules to combat to address the issues here so that we can have a "fair contest" in the future over systems, etc.

[Ramano]

Fuck you you voodoo ass mother fucker! I see how you are, I make you an ultimatum and then you send a fucking thunderstorm at my house and knock the power out for 6hrs!! Tree branch came down on my power lines. You'd think by now id be running out of tree but nope, they grow back as fast as they come down.  Either way, yeah thats why I been gone today. Cant get online with no power and no internet. So let me see what we are dealing with here at Thyferra.

And personally, I thought thats what the CP limits are for? To limit how much was being fielded in battle. If we are going to allow near infinite resupply mid battle, whats the point of fleet command limits at all? Why not just give everyone 1 large, 1 medium, and 1 small ship and let us go so long as you own more somewhere at that point?

This current way is just sloppy, its hard to keep track of, and its just not becoming of an imperial. When the imps loose something like a flagship, they retreat, regroup, and come back in force at a more opportune time. Fuck the fact it has so many ways for confusion and abuse, its just tacky.

[Dementat]

I'm with Ramano. This needs to be addressed and fixed now. See my recommendation above.

[SWSF Hale]

I'm drafting some "clear and concise" rules right now. I'll be posting them for review as soon as they're done.

[SWSF Hale]

The following is posted under Volume I: General Gameplay Rules.

It is somewhat of a complex rule, but I think it adequately addresses the issues at hand. If there is anything ya'll feel like needs to be added or reworded please let me know.

The Burden of Command
Although a player may have up to 23 Command Points (plus additional bonus points and units) worth of active ships in his or her fleet at any given time that can be deployed to multiple locations, only a player's maximum command limit may be used for the duration of a battle.

1. The scope of command points includes all capital ships as well as support craft, starfighters, and ground units onboard those capital ships. To use even a single auxiliary craft, starfighter squadron, ground vehicle, or infantry squad attached to a ship constitutes an act of will that represents the total command points of the capital ship those units are attached to. For example, if a Rebel Assault Frigate is destroyed but its starfighter squadron is still active, then all 6 of the RAF's command points are still being utilized.

2. Capital ships that become DISABLED or DERELICT actively take up a player's command points as well, so until a capital ship becomes fully DESTROYED and all its other support units are destroyed as well, is a player finally relieved of that capital ship's command points.

3. Players cannot assume command over new units until their character is physically in the same system as those units. The only exception to this rule is making direct swaps between newly constructed units or those on PDF duty. For example, if a player has his/her fleet deployed to an away system and places a ship in his main fleet onto PDF duty, a newly constructed ship can be transferred directly into his main fleet without the player needing to be physically present to do so. Additionally, if a player wants to make a 1-for-1 swap between a ship in his main fleet and one on PDF, both of those ships DO NOT have to be present with each other. The final caveat to this rule is that any new additions, transfers, swaps, or any modifications to any player fleet cannot take place if units are involved in combat operations or will be entering combat upon their arrival to a player's current location.

I also added this to Volume III: Combat Rules...

A Concise Definition of Conflict and Occupation
When a system has an active hostile presence, it is considered "in conflict". Any participating or belligerent units in that system are thereby also considered "in conflict", actively engaging in "combat operations", etc. Only until a system is wholly cleared out by a single faction for a period of 24 hours will a system no longer be considered "in conflict". Occupation of a system occurs when all military units and facilities of a host faction have either been destroyed or surrendered to a foreign faction. While a system is being occupied, it can be claimed by your faction if a ground facility is built there.

[Ramano]

How about an addendum to this as such: Any planet that is "in conflict" can not restock PDF, build, or produce units until said conflict has ended for 24hrs.

Basically the way I see, a planet that is being blockaded and invaded will have no way to acquire resources to build anything, personnel will be too preoccupied to produce anything, and sending in new PDF is covered in the conflict section. Pretty much, enemy fleet presence at a planet puts said planet on pause until conflict is concluded.

[SWSF Hale]

I added these to the neutral specs. Have fun.

Notes: In GCW - Episode I: Ashes of the Alliance, a popular feature of the game was the venerable "auxiliary facility", well now I am excited to bring back these aux facilities into Twilight of the Empire. Like before, aux facilities are modular add-ons to existing facilities that increase that facility's capabilities. No more than (1) aux facility can be attached at any given time, and no more than (4) total aux facilities can be built on any given planet.

BARRACKS
Cost: 200 KCs
Production Time: 7 Days
Onboard Units:
100 Infantry Squads
10 GAVs

STARPORT
Cost: 200 KCs
Production Time: 7 Days
Onboard Units:
1 Starfighter Squadron

SUPPLY DEPOT
Cost: 200 KCs
Production Time: 7 Days
Industrial Output: 50 KCs / Action Day

[Ramano]

And today I watched syren desecrate the temple of apollo, and the gods did not strike her down!