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THE GALACTIC ARCHIVES => Retired Game Archives => [Closed] GCW Archives => Topic started by: SWSF Hale on September 20, 2013, 04:39:57 PM

Title: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 20, 2013, 04:39:57 PM
GCW Combat v3.0

At the heart of this system is simplicity and familiarity. I'm using the same game mechanics that any tabletop board game would use as well as other features that the Star Wars TCG also used to create a smoother and higher functioning combat model that is bound to be more fun than burdensome.

Behold, the Hexagrid:
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/Hexagrid_zpsb6bc2e6c.png)

"X marks the spot", which could be either the Planet itself or the Capitol, since this grid could in theory be used for both Space and Ground battles. Red Zones are where opposing forces will either exit hyperspace or land troops, while Blue Zones are where home defense forces can position themselves.

Okay, now what?

ORDER OF BATTLE
All players must follow this order of battle to a tee. Based on the observations from the mock, it seems that in a desire to give players bigger fleets, we've invariably created a new demon: length of the battle. In order to reduce battle length, I propose we all strictly follow this order of battle:

1. Deploy Phase --> Attackers exits hyperspace. Reinforcements are called in. Defender posts locations.
2. Maneuver Phase --> Attackers can move their units around, move into Low Orbit, create Formations, etc. Reinforcements exit hyperspace in the Red Zones.
3. Battle Phase --> Attackers shoot first, Defenders bat last.
4. Damage Phase --> Destroyed units are cleared out.
5. Power Phase --> The winner is chosen by calculating total Power. Loser must retreat from Space, and cannot return until the Logistics Phase (the final phase) is over.
6. Siege Phase --> If the attacker won, then he can reposition his units in Low Orbit to enforce a blockade. Grid spaces are held by exerting Power over it. During this phase, orbital bombardments and troop landings also occur.
7. Assault Phase --> Invasion forces land troops and begin assault.
8. Casualty Phase --> Killed units are removed.
9. Victory Phase --> Invasion forces can win if any of the following conditions are met: "Conquest" (the Capitol is cleared of defending forces), "Domination" (your total Power is more than triple the defender's), or "Surrender" (defending forces can surrender only after an Assault has taken place).
10. Logistics Phase --> After the battle is over, it takes 3 days for the system to convert to the winner's full control. During this phase, new system defenses can be brought in to solidify control. After this phase is over, the system is open again for movement and future battles.

Okay, so the Order of Battle is pretty cut and dry. There are no time limits, rather as soon as a phase is completed, players can move onto the next phase at their convenience. We can get away with this because there are only two combat posts you really need to concern yourself with: Space Battle and Ground Assault.

Below is a sample spec listing. I'm taking the familiar GCW specs but replacing know features with Attack Rating and Durability. Attack Rating is the total damage output of a starship multiplied by x4. Durability is Shields + Armor. That's it! No more Hull, no more Systems. Starfighters and Aux get similar treatment. Their attack ratings are their damage outputs x2.

ISD
Attack Rating: 4320
Durability: 4800
UCR: 3
Docking Bay: 150m
Tractor Beams: 1000m
Unit Capacity:
6 TIE Squadrons
6 AUX Groups
10 Landing Barges
1000 Infantry Squads
20 GAV Groups
Special Features:
Dual Shield Domes -- Can be individually targeted by SF and AUX (DUR:120/UCR: 3, each). If destroyed, the ISD suffers a -240 Durability hit.
Battlefield Dominance -- During the Power Phase, this unit may add its Durability to its Attack Rating when calculating total Power.

VSD
Attack Rating: 3840
Durability: 2700
UCR: 3
Docking Bay: 100m
Tractor Beams: 500m
Unit Capacity:
2 TIE Squadrons
2 AUX Groups
2 Landing Barges
200 Infantry Squads
4 GAV Groups
Special Features:
Assault Bombardment -- 50% of this unit's Attack Rating can be applied towards Orbital Bombardment; the other 50% is applied when calculating total Ground Power.

CRAK
Attack Rating: 800
Durability: 1050
UCR: 6
Docking Bay: 12 External Racks
Tractor Beams: 200m
Unit Capacity:
1 TIE Squadron
Special Features:
Flank Position -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may be assigned to a Star Destroyer for defensive purposes. If so, any attacks made upon that Star Destroyer must first be made on this unit. (Restrictions: No more than 2 Carracks can be assigned to any 1 Star Destroyer).


TIE Fighter Squadron
Attack Rating: 96
Durability: 72
UCR: 8
Special Features:
TIE Swarm -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may form up with other TIE Squadrons and combine its Attack Rating and Durability.
Point Defense -- If assigned to CSP, this unit gets +2 UCR and adds its Attack Rating to its Durability.

TIE Bomber Squadron
Attack Rating: 240
Durability: 144
UCR: 6
Hyperdrive: None
Special Features:
Bombing Run -- This unit gets a bonus attack during the Siege Phase.

TIE Interceptor Squadron
Attack Rating: 192
Durability: 120
UCR: 10
Hyperdrive: None
Special Features:
First Strike -- This unit gets a bonus attack during the Maneuver Phase. If this ability is utilized, this unit may not be assigned to CSP.
Point Defense -- If assigned to CSP, this unit gets +2 UCR and adds its Attack Rating to its Durability.

TIE Avenger Squadron
Attack Rating: 288
Durability: 240
UCR: 9
Hyperdrive: x1
Special Features:
Space Superiority Fighter -- This unit's Attack Rating can be applied when calculating total Space Power.



MC-80
Attack Rating: 2704
Durability: 4550
UCR: 3
Docking Bay: 100m
Tractor Beams: 500m
Unit Capacity:
4 Heavy SF Squadrons
4 AUX Groups
3 Medium Transports
300 Infantry Squads
6 GAV Groups
Special Features:
Mon Calamari Shield Boost -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may transfer any amount of its Attack Rating to its Durability.

RAF
Attack Rating: 2400
Durability: 1800
UCR: 4
Docking Bay: 6 Auxiliary Racks
Tractor Beams: None
Unit Capacity:
1 AUX Group
Special Features:
Assault Formation -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may lower its UCR by -1 and its base Durability by -10%, in order to increase its base Attack Rating by +10%.

NEB
Attack Rating: 696
Durability: 900
UCR: 5
Docking Bay: 50m
Tractor Beams: 200m
Unit Capacity:
2 SF Squadrons
2 AUX Groups
Special Features:
Escort Operations -- When calculating total Space Power, this unit adds its Durability.

CORV
Attack Rating: 240
Durability: 525
UCR: 7
Docking Bay: None
Tractor Beam: 100m
Unit Capacity:
10 Infantry Squads
Special Features:
Blockade Runner -- If this unit lost a battle and must retreat, it gets a bonus attack prior to leaving the system.


A-Wing Squadron
Attack Rating: 192
Durability: 120
UCR: 10
Hyperdrive: x1
Special Features:
First Strike -- This unit gets a bonus attack during the Maneuver Phase. If this ability is utilized, this unit may not be assigned to CSP.
Point Defense -- If assigned to CSP, this unit gets +2 UCR and adds its Attack Rating to its Durability.

B-Wing Squadron
Attack Rating: 408
Durability: 408
UCR: 3
Hyperdrive: x1
Special Features:
Space Superiority Fighter -- This unit's Attack Rating can be applied when calculating total Space Power.
Attack Run -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may enter into an Attack Run against a capital ship or battlestation. If so, it gets -1 UCR but +10% to its Attack Rating.

X-Wing Squadron
Attack Rating: 240
Durability: 312
UCR: 6
Hyperdrive: x1
Special Features:
Onboard R2 Unit -- During the Maneuver Phase, the onboard R2 unit may decrease either the Attack Rating or Durability of this unit by -10% in order to increase the other by +10%.
Space Superiority Fighter -- This unit's Attack Rating can be applied when calculating total Space Power.
Attack Run -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may enter into an Attack Run against a capital ship or battlestation. If so, it gets -1 UCR but +10% to its Attack Rating.

Y-Wing Squadron
Attack Rating: 288
Durability: 384
UCR: 4
Hyperdrive: x1
Special Features:
Onboard R2 Unit -- During the Maneuver Phase, the onboard R2 unit may decrease either the Attack Rating or Durability of this unit by -10% in order to increase the other by +10%.
Bombing Run -- This unit gets a bonus attack during the Siege Phase.



Sounds like fun, yeah?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 21, 2013, 12:23:23 AM
Im a fan of where this is going.  The idea of setting up the OoB for combat and having it all a structured progress is great for time constraint.  Each and every battle then becomes a known commitment from the beginning.  The stripped down specs are great.  Much easier referencing, condensed values make full fleets easier to manage.  Especially happy with idea of expanding ground combat to be equal w space, so much greatness can happen on ground and w/ personnel/character combat now.  Special abils for each unit are killer.

We should try a mock w somewhat heavy fleets, few heavy cruisers each at least.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 21, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Lambda Shuttle Group
Attack Rating: 144
Durability: 240
UCR: 4
Hyperdrive: x1
Unit Capacity:
12 Infantry Squads
Special Features:
Fleet Transport -- During the Siege Phase, this unit may make a total of (5) transports to/from the planet surface.
Logistics Support -- During the Power Phase, this unit adds its Durability to its Attack Rating when calculating total Power.

Stormtrooper Transport Group
Attack Rating: 312
Durability: 240
UCR: 5
Hyperdrive: None
Unit Capacity:
18 Infantry Squads
Special Features:
Boarding Preparations -- During the Maneuver Phase, this unit may select a capital ship for Boarding Operations during the Combat Phase. If so, this unit adds its Durability to its Attack Rating and multiplies that total by x2 when calculating total Power.
Boarding Operations -- During the Combat Phase, this unit may waive attacking to commence Boarding Operations. Any number of Stormtrooper Transports can join up to form a boarding party. In order to successfully board troops, the total Power of the Stormtrooper Transport Group(s) must be greater than the Power of the capital ship they are trying to board.

Skipray Blastboat Group
Attack Rating: 312
Durability: 300
UCR: 5
Hyperdrive: x1
Special Features:
Space Superiority Auxiliary -- This unit adds its Durability to its Attack Rating when calculating total Power.
Air Support -- During the Siege Phase, this unit may make an additional attack.

Republic Assault Transport Group
Attack Rating: 528
Durability: 810
UCR: 5
Hyperdrive: x1
Unit Capacity:
12 Infantry Squads
Special Features:
Combat Boarding Operations -- During the Combat Phase, this unit may make an attack AND commence boarding operations. Any number of Assault Transport Groups may form up for a boarding party. In order to successfully board troops, the total Power of the Assault Transports must be greater than the capital ship they are trying to board.
Air Support -- During the Siege Phase, this unit may make an additional attack.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 22, 2013, 04:19:25 PM
I'd love to see an example of this to wrap my brain 100% around it, at a glance i think its just what we need...
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 22, 2013, 04:40:48 PM
MOCK BATTLE: IMP vs REB

The following mock battle will take place immediately between Eidolon and Hale. Outside participation is neither required nor desired.
Hale will play as an attacking Imperial Fleet, with Eidolon defending as a Republic Fleet.

Imperial Fleet
2 ISD (12 SF, 12 AUX)
3 VSD (6 SF, 6 AUX)
4 CRAK (4 SF)

VS.

Republic Fleet
2 MC-80s (8 SF, 4 AUX)
3 RAF (3 AUX)
4 NEB (8 SF, 8 AUX)
5 CORV
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 22, 2013, 04:43:24 PM
DEPLOY PHASE Attacking units exit hyperspace and scan the system for defenses.


ISD Imperator 1
AR: 4320 | DUR: 4800/4800 | UCR: 3 | Location: C1
---> TIE Avenger (TA-01) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Avenger (TA-02) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-01) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-02) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Bomber (TB-01) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> TIE Bomber (TB-02) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-01) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-02) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-01) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-02) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-01) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-02) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

ISD Imperator 2
AR: 4320 | DUR: 4800/4800 | UCR: 3 | Location: C4
---> TIE Avenger (TA-03) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Avenger (TA-04) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-03) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-04) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Bomber (TB-03) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> TIE Bomber (TB-04) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-03) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-04) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-03) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-04) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-03) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-04) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

VSD Victory 1
AR: 3840 | DUR: 2700/2700 | UCR: 3 | Location: C1
---> TIE Fighter (TA-01) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Fighter (TA-02) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-05) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-06) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

VSD Victory 2
AR: 3840 | DUR: 2700/2700 | UCR: 3 | Location: C4
---> TIE Fighter (TA-03) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Fighter (TA-04) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-07) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-08) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

VSD Victory 3
AR: 3840 | DUR: 2700/2700 | UCR: 3 | Location: E2
---> TIE Fighter (TA-05) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Fighter (TA-06) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-09) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-10) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

CRAK Carrack 1
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: C1
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-05) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10

CRAK Carrack 2
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: C1
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-06) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10

CRAK Carrack 3
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: C4
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-07) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10

CRAK Carrack 4
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: C4
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-08) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 24, 2013, 12:01:30 PM
   Hrm. . .  PAUSE  ;D   This may be too much, though maybe it's what you have to go through to get to a simpler point of playing. . I dunno.  Feel free to dismiss.  But I think there's still a lot that can be . . .reduced or reworked.  So far it's a GREAT progress in my mind though. .



    I'd be much more comfortable getting a test battle on if we defined a couple more things.  I think there's a lot we could stand to look at a little and define yet, it will make the whole thing a lot more structured and set game, and instead of comparing values so much, maybe we could literally get closer to an actual Paper/Rock/Scissor thing, like have Units/GamePieces used in certain ways as opposed to being free ranging units.  Or maybe Heavy Cruisers are the Free Ranging piece, so combat centers on them, then everything else has an ancillary role or special mechanisms.

    Statuses it  seems like a bit much to manage and digest yet.  Also I think we would benefit to inject some base "objective".  Some reason that the players want to butt heads instead of just stay away from each other on grid and preserve totals for Power Phase. 

    Couple thoughts-

    The X marks the spot.  So what if the Attacker has to get all his forces in to the X instead of just anywhere on the grid for Power Phase totals? whatever makes it to X is what is totaled for the power phase for attacker.  The defenders objective is to keep things out of the X and stay alive for Power Phase total himself, so this encourages units to be spread out and positioned as a wall almost as opposed to grouped in one location. 

    You'd have to say NO UNIT can start in the X, With 1 Maneuver Phase preceding Battle Phase, then you need to add ability to Maneuver in Power Phase as well so that the Attacker could have a chance to move his surviving units to the X and Defender can Maneuver to X as well.  Whatever units from both groups are left at end that can make it to the X off their movement in the Power Phase, are totalled for Power and winner.  The Diff between Attacker and Defender Power Phase totals in the X determines both the Winner, and some other kind of penalty we say against the loser, it could be additional literal loss of units or damage or something.


     It treats things almost like a Checker/Chess board in a way.   We say that only 1 Heavy Cruiser can occupy 1 location, it then becomes like the Checker or the Rook/Knight/Pawn, you can't move through a piece.  We base combat around Heavy Cruisers.  They are the Top Notch Scale.  Every other Unit is ancillary or a service to a Heavy Cruiser some how?


Outline for OoB. . .

    Deploy Phase - Attacker "Exits" HS on outer most ring, positions units wherever he wants, remembering the end objective is to both Eliminate as much of the Defense as possible, keep as much of himself alive as possible, and maneuver as many pieces as possible in to the X in the Power Phase.  Defender posts his locations, all within the inner ring.  He needs to both Block opponents pieces and destroy what he can and stay alive.  His pieces do not need to make it to X for Power Phase.  Rather wherever they are, they are totaled, giving a burden of DOING on the attacker.

    Maneuver Phase - In order to set selves up to BOTH Engage opponents, and to then in Power Phase move to t he X, attacker maneuvers his units.  Defender then has opportunity to reposition.

    Battle Phase - Based on final locations in Maneuver Phase, Heavy Cruisers, Light Cruisers, Fighters and Support are used for their purposes and attacks.

    Damage Phase - Destroyed Units Cleared

    Power Phase - Attacker gets one last Maneuver opportunity to position all he can in the X for his Power Totals.  Defenders totals wherever they are.


Special Rules. . .

    Heavy Cruisers CANNOT move through each other, they must go around.
    All Other Vessels can move "passed"/"through" each other, or occupy same location as well, with respects to heavy cruisers to.
    Movement will have to be carefully balanced to fit the move to the X need of attacker and Defender counter steps etc.




Couple separate thoughts. . .

-   I think Fighters and Aux would do well to function more so as special use mechanisms only as opposed to regular free-ranging units with special abils as well.  That would drastically reduce the mental power spent on keeping track of them and their values so much.  Maybe like, only Bomber or Assault units can be used to attack Cap Ships/Heavy Cruisers.  Fighters can be used to destroy other Fighters or Bombers at a 1:1 ratio, 2:1 to take on Interceptors.  Perhaps Interceptors can be used to Destroy ANY other SF Piece at a 1:1 ratio.  Maybe they have a special role of Countering/Nullifying any Attack by a Bomber unit on a friendly in same location.


-    A thought for simplicity and times sake, in rules and in specs we should express nothing as a Percentage unless absolutely necessary, rather a raw value.  This removes a calculation step for players.


Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 24, 2013, 12:51:24 PM
I think you might be overcomplicating it even more. Perhaps I'll hijack the mock and run it myself, and do a full run through... THEN we can entertain ancillary/suggestive commentary.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 24, 2013, 01:09:47 PM
Took me about 10 minutes to build from scratch.

REPUBLIC DEPLOY PHASE Defending units post locations.

MC-80 Mon Republica 1
AR: 2704 | DUR: 4550/4550 | UCR: 3 | Location: C2
--> A-Wing (A/W-01) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-01) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> X-Wing (X/W-01) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-01) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Assault Transport (RAT-02) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-01) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-02) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

MC-80 Mon Republica 2
AR: 2704 | DUR: 4550/4550 | UCR: 3 | Location: C3
--> A-Wing (A/W-02) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-02) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> X-Wing (X/W-02) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-02) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-03) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-04) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

RAF Assault 1
AR: 2400 | DUR: 1800/1800 | UCR: 4 | Location: C2
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5

RAF Assault 2
AR: 2400 | DUR: 1800/1800 | UCR: 4 | Location: C2
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5

RAF Assault 3
AR: 2400 | DUR: 1800/1800 | UCR: 4 | Location: C2
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5

NEB Escort 1
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: C2
--> A-Wing (A/W-03) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-03) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-05) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-06) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

NEB Escort 2
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: C2
--> X-Wing (X/W-03) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-03) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-07) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-08) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

NEB Escort 3
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: C3
--> A-Wing (A/W-04) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-04) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-09) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-10) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

NEB Escort 4
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: C3
--> X-Wing (X/W-04) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-04) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-11) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-12) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

CORV Runner 1
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: C3

CORV Runner 2
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: C3

CORV Runner 3
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: C3

CORV Runner 4
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: C3

CORV Runner 5
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: C3
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 25, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Utilizing some suggestions you mentioned!

IMPERIAL MANEUVER PHASE Attackers may move up to 2 grid spaces away from their starting position. Heavy Capital Ships cannot move into Low Orbit positions where a defending Heavy Capital Ship is.


ISD Imperator 1
AR: 4320 | DUR: 4800/4800 | UCR: 3 | Location: D2
---> TIE Avenger (TA-01) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Avenger (TA-02) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-01) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-02) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Bomber (TB-01) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> TIE Bomber (TB-02) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-01) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-02) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-01) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-02) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-01) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-02) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

ISD Imperator 2
AR: 4320 | DUR: 4800/4800 | UCR: 3 | Location: D3
---> TIE Avenger (TA-03) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Avenger (TA-04) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-03) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-04) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
---> TIE Bomber (TB-03) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> TIE Bomber (TB-04) AR: 240 / DUR: 144 / UCR: 6
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-03) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Skipray Blastboat (SB-04) AR: 312 / DUR: 300 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-03) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Stormtrooper Transport (ST-04) AR: 312 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 5
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-03) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-04) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

VSD Victory 1
AR: 3840 | DUR: 2700/2700 | UCR: 3 | Location: D2
---> TIE Fighter (TA-01) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Fighter (TA-02) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-05) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-06) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

VSD Victory 2
AR: 3840 | DUR: 2700/2700 | UCR: 3 | Location: D3
---> TIE Fighter (TA-03) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Fighter (TA-04) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-07) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-08) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

VSD Victory 3
AR: 3840 | DUR: 2700/2700 | UCR: 3 | Location: D2
---> TIE Fighter (TA-05) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> TIE Fighter (TA-06) AR: 288 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 9
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-09) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
---> Lambda Shuttle (LS-10) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

CRAK Carrack 1
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: D2
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-05) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10

CRAK Carrack 2
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: D2
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-06) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10

CRAK Carrack 3
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: D3
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-07) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10

CRAK Carrack 4
AR: 800 | DUR: 1050 | UCR: 6 | Location: D3
---> TIE Interceptor (TN-08) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 01, 2013, 10:26:01 AM
REPUBLIC MANEUVER PHASE Defending units reposition. No reinforcements to arrive.

ACTIONS: MC80s transfer 1000 points from AR to DUR each.

MC-80 Mon Republica 1
AR: 1704 | DUR: 5550/4550 | UCR: 3 | Location: D2
--> A-Wing (A/W-01) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-01) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> X-Wing (X/W-01) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-01) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Assault Transport (RAT-02) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-01) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-02) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

MC-80 Mon Republica 2
AR: 1704 | DUR: 5550/4550 | UCR: 3 | Location: D3
--> A-Wing (A/W-02) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-02) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> X-Wing (X/W-02) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-02) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-03) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-04) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

RAF Assault 1
AR: 2400 | DUR: 1800/1800 | UCR: 4 | Location: D2
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5

RAF Assault 2
AR: 2400 | DUR: 1800/1800 | UCR: 4 | Location: D2
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5

RAF Assault 3
AR: 2400 | DUR: 1800/1800 | UCR: 4 | Location: D2
--> Assault Transport (RAT-01) AR: 528 / DUR: 810 / UCR: 5

NEB Escort 1
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: D2
--> A-Wing (A/W-03) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-03) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-05) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-06) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

NEB Escort 2
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: D2
--> X-Wing (X/W-03) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-03) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-07) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-08) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

NEB Escort 3
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: D3
--> A-Wing (A/W-04) AR: 192 / DUR: 120 / UCR: 10
--> B-Wing (B/W-04) AR: 408 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 3
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-09) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-10) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

NEB Escort 4
AR: 696 | DUR: 900/900 | UCR: 5 | Location: D3
--> X-Wing (X/W-04) AR: 240 / DUR: 408 / UCR: 6
--> Y-Wing (Y/W-04) AR: 288 / DUR: 384 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-11) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4
--> Lambda Shuttle (LSG-12) AR: 144 / DUR: 240 / UCR: 4

CORV Runner 1
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: D3

CORV Runner 2
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: D3

CORV Runner 3
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: D3

CORV Runner 4
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: D3

CORV Runner 5
AR: 240 | DUR: 525/525 | UCR: 7 | Location: D3
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Erasmar on October 03, 2013, 11:18:40 AM
I like what Eid brings up about simplifying things even further. If you look at strategy games, many people want a lot of complexity, but the games that boil down that complexity are the most addictive and can actually offer the most strategy.

I would go one step further than the heavy cruiser idea and say every hex can only support: 1 cap ship + 1 SF/aux.

Cap ships block movement of cap ships. SF and aux craft move where they please.

All ships have 2 action points to divide between moving and attacking: move-attack, move-move, attack-move, attack-attack.

If you choose to end your turn with 1 action point, you repair, regaining some durability.

Ships have two attack ratings, two defense ratings. Attack/defense vs cap ships, attack/defense vs sf/aux.

Also, sacrilege I know, we reduce the # of sf/aux craft. Big ships/carriers enter battle with 2, maybe 3 SFs/aux. All other ships have either 0 or 1.

Then you work in some special abilities or vulnerabilities, but you have a very basic battle system.

To take your spec ideas Hale, here's what I see:

Imperial-class Star Destroyer
AC: 8
AS: 3
DC: 7
DS: 4
Durability: 10
Movement: 2
Attachments:
   1 TIE Interceptor
   1 TIE Bomber
   1 Assault Transport
Special Features:
   Dual Shield Domes -- Something
   Battlefield Dominance -- Something


Other ships' ratings would basically be set so that if they take on an ISD 1-v-1, their attack rating will always be lower than the ISD's defense rating, so they will actually always lose durability. Meaning, you either attack with several cap ships, or attack with SFs. ISDs would actually be vulnerable to SFs again, without any need to crazy special rules.

Combat is attacker's attack minus the defender's defend. If the defend is higher, the difference is dealt as damage to the attacker.

You can flank with additional attackers. The first additional attacker adds half their attack rating. The second adds a quarter. Maybe you can only have 2 flankers, or three total ships, involved in a single attack. It's still tactically important to surround the enemy though, to keep them from moving.

Maybe have one small additional stat so that overmatched attackers can still harm the defense somehow, but I kind of like that a ship with strong defense simply has a strong defense and requires more force to take down.

So this got a little long, but it comes down to:
   - attack vs caps, attack vs sf/aux, defend vs caps, defend vs sf/aux
   - overall durability
   - one ship per hex
   - one SF/aux per hex
   - up to 3 attackers per defender (in same attack)
   - 2 action points per turn (attack-move, move-attack, move-move, attack-attack)
   - leave 1 action point unspent to recover 1 or 2 durability
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 03, 2013, 04:43:49 PM
I like those ideas, but to me the problem isn't necessarily with specs. We can simplify those to death and still have the problem of fielding multiple ISDs and support craft. Hop is working on a system that is simplified like that, that features lower numbers and such, but again... what are the real issues at hand?

1. Length of Battles
2. Management of Fleets
3. Ease of Use
4. Giving the players who want battle tactics their due.

To me, length of battle/time commitment is the chief concern. GCWIII is supposed to be bigger in terms of fleet on fleet, and so figuring out how to condense that into a desirable format is the issue. Regardless of what develops in terms of specs, I'm going to push for the proposed Order of Battle as it's written for this mock in whatever new system we come up with.

Thanks for the input, Eras.

The reality is... we may have to go back to a "command ship + support" model for combat. Even with these jazzy new specs, it can be a little daunting going over each and every unit's actions.

Do we want small scale and simplicity or big and complex? In my mind, we can't have "big and simple" without delving into combat automation.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Erasmar on October 03, 2013, 09:21:21 PM
The specs were the least of my concerns/thoughts when I was brainstorming that. What I was really thinking was an extremely simple combat model that's based on something like Panzer Corps, a "beer and pretzel" wargame that is as simple as it gets. You'd be surprised how focused you become on tactics when the rules are made very simple for you.

I'm also imagining about 8 units per side max, including sf/aux craft. An 8-unit fleet would be something like an ISD, VSD, 2 frigates, 2 interceptors, and 2 bombers.

I'm with you on the "big and simple" difficulties. I don't think it's possible, though I would very much love to be proven wrong!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 04, 2013, 08:41:04 AM
Unfortunately when the servers got shifted, my thread where I had created a "tabletop board-game" version of GCW got deleted somehow. It was called "GCW: Conquest" and pretty much used the setup you're talking about. Specs were very, very minimal.

This was the game "board":
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/GCW.png)

Hyperspace values were essentially the # of grids you could move per turn. The Rebels had the ability to launch 1 surprise attack per turn anywhere, but using only minimal forces, whereas the Empire got to deploy units at the start of the game anywhere. It was very paper-rock-scissors in a way. The galaxy was minimally reduced to systems mentioned only in the movies, for greater recognition.

Specs were reduced to that which you'd see in any Collectible Card Game. Here's something else I did:

(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/Template.png)

C = Credits, or cost of unit
A = Attack
D = Defense/Durability
S = Shields
H = Hyperspeed

The theory was that it could be both a card game and board game at the same time, and that it could be played multiple times over... not necessarily a long-haul.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on October 04, 2013, 01:26:46 PM

Specs. . .

   How the game is visualized in ones head in terms of both position, value resolution, and short and long term strategic considerations has TONS to do with the time put in to battling, and for me at least, that is tied directly in to how specifications are laid out and especially in to the value ranges being considered.  It's much easier to throw 1-10 or 1-20 around in your head than 50-7440 etc.


Battle. . .

   I like the concept of the Order of Battle.  The reason is because it makes engaging in a battle more of a known commitment in terms of what you will need to do and put in to it and how a conclusion is reached.  It also helps hasten many things with respects to Retreats, surviving fleet constituents etc.  Also I like that it puts things in a neatly framed perspective.  All the choosing to be done is further constricted to given Phases, it will eliminate a lot of loophole gaming by more definitively spelling out what can be done when and where.


Unit Roles. . .

   I really dislike idea of going back to One Ship + Support.  It worked before because of our numbers, you could put together a whole fleet with several people.  The only way in my mind it makes sense and woudl work out capturing the "feel" of the game, is if it were a restricted scope*, meaning not a whole galaxy at large.  This is not something I am at all opposed to.

    For Fighters/Aux/Support, rather than treat them as a finite individual unit attached to a larger unit, we could just treat them as abilities of a sort of that greater unit.  So it's not so much fighters get tracked and deployed and attack individually or are destroyed, but they have functions that factor in to a Capital Ships greater abilities.  Then the amount of squadrons a ship would have could translate in to how many times in a battle a certain ability could be used, or to what effect?  This also eliminates mass delpoyment of every support unit a ship has for every battle creating swollen globs, and forces "Support" to take on the respective roles they are meant to instead of generally augmenting any kind of attack.


Scope. . .

   Big & Simple is doable in my mind, but like I say I think it's tied in to more how you present Units and what they can do.  The OoB will help straighten things out immensely and 'nsync to it's name, help establish some Order.  You can have a person with a fleet of 5 ISDs, but then everything those ISDs can be used for needs to be tightened up and VERY SUMMARILY presented, their support would need to be tied more directly to them, and tracked along with them as well as a part of their actions more or less, rather than separately.  Basically Aux would have no durability associated with them, they'd be able to be Countered/An Ability Rendered Uselses by other Support Abilities of opposing players uses.

   Galaxy scope wise, you could take a single planet and a single battle and make that the focus of the game.  There's really no more pivotal event in the Galactic Civil War era/The Star Wars we most all know and adore most intimately/EmpireVSRebellion than the Battle of Coruscant/NR Invasion.  Something of such magnitude could go on for years IC and involve any entity conceivable.  It'd take careful design (what doesn't) but you could set it up to be a really long drawn out chess match for the Battle itself.  Possibly too unorthodox to draw interest, but a cool concept to me.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 04, 2013, 04:53:10 PM
I think in terms of scale, capital ships are not the issue. We could very easily do the 2 ISD, 3 VSD, 4 CRAK setup we have now IF support craft didn't take up so much time/room to manage.

We can do big and simple perhaps, but only if we push for macromanagement of fleets.

Maybe we can push the "Squadron" idea to the next level by creating SF "Wings"?
Or maybe we regress and go back to individual SFs with some other sort of "lumping" mechanic for easier computation of damage?

To me that's where the butter on the bread is... because I don't think anyone has a problem with managing 2 ISDs, 3 VSDs, and 4 CRAKs... it's the 22 SF Squadrons and 10 AUX groups attached to it that give players headaches before writing a post.

Again, we could very easily do a massive battle calculation with 22 TIE Squadrons vs 16 Rebel Squadrons, and figure out some way to handle rollover damage or whatever, but this removes every sense of small-scale tactical gameplay from the battle.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on October 05, 2013, 09:14:23 AM
I think there is merit to the idea that Eidolon has put forth as regards SF/Aux being modifiers on capital ships, rather than managed units. The question is how the modifier might function in combat.

Taking from suggestions so far put out in this thread, some ideas..

Premise: Capital ships have attack rating VS CAP and VS SF/AUX; and defense ratings VS CAP and VS SF/AUX -- perhaps we could add a Bombard rating, for large capital ships attacking from range.

Each SF unit has a different modifier value on the CAP ship they are assigned to (perhaps with SF having offensive/defensive settings).. So it increases either offensive or defensive value.

...
ISD
AR vs CAP: XXX
AR vs SF: XXX
Bombard: XXX
DR vs CAP: XXX
DR vs SF: XXX

TIE/F
AR vs CAP bonus: 1%
AR vs SF bonus: 7%
DR vs CAP: 0%
DR vs SF: 15%

...

So, some ideas:

1. GRIDLESS (no grid, simple as, best possible thing for us doing this online with no graphics).
2. BOMBARD FEATURE (large capital ships can attack from range vs other large CAP ships, lower value, but turn following a bombard, opponent can only bombard them back (not engage directly)).
3. Calculate your ship values, then choose your targets (usual damage applied).

Not sure if this would be all that satisfying in terms of game play though.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Erasmar on October 05, 2013, 09:51:10 AM
It's much easier to throw 1-10 or 1-20 around in your head than 50-7440 etc.

Precisely.

All the choosing to be done is further constricted to given Phases, it will eliminate a lot of loophole gaming by more definitively spelling out what can be done when and where.

I don't quite see the need for phases that much, though this point is a great one. I think my number two concern about battling after having to manage large numbers was making sure I was doing everything I should have been doing at that time, and wondering if there was a loophole that someone else would exploit.

For Fighters/Aux/Support, rather than treat them as a finite individual unit attached to a larger unit, we could just treat them as abilities of a sort of that greater unit.  So it's not so much fighters get tracked and deployed and attack individually or are destroyed, but they have functions that factor in to a Capital Ships greater abilities.  Then the amount of squadrons a ship would have could translate in to how many times in a battle a certain ability could be used, or to what effect?  This also eliminates mass delpoyment of every support unit a ship has for every battle creating swollen globs, and forces "Support" to take on the respective roles they are meant to instead of generally augmenting any kind of attack.

Fantastic idea to me. This is something innovative. Maybe just have statuses that fighters are in. My TIE squadron is in CAP mode, +1 DEF or something like that. Bombers in attack mode, +1 ATK vs capital ships.


I don't think anyone has a problem with managing 2 ISDs, 3 VSDs, and 4 CRAKs... it's the 22 SF Squadrons and 10 AUX groups attached to it that give players headaches before writing a post.

Correct. It comes down to how many individual units a person has to "touch" per post. We all have different ideal numbers, but they likely aren't as high as 30. If we were doing a 1-v-1, really detailed battle -- where the battle WAS the game -- then different story. (And that's an idea worth considering as a separate project, sort of like what Eid suggests about scope.) But I think, while some would lament the loss of fighters as units, most would rather focus on capital ships if it meant better gameplay.

1. GRIDLESS (no grid, simple as, best possible thing for us doing this online with no graphics).

Me personally, while I'd love an easier way to track units, I also think the inability to maneuver would take away from the potential tactical fun in the game. If we could find a way to reduce the number of support ships, speaking only for myself I wouldn't mind still having to worry about location for the fleet.



There's also the idea -- separate from this and I don't want to muddy the waters -- of a starfighter-oriented game. I've toyed with rules for it in the past, can't remember who I was working on them with. The idea being each person controls up to a squadron or two, individual fighters. Launching from GM-controlled cap ships. Pretty much a sim version of X-Wing vs TIE Fighter. But I'm not sure we have the interest or time for that. The net result of the rules would be the same amount of time required per post, just managing SFs instead of ISDs.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 05, 2013, 12:32:08 PM
I like the idea of an X-Wing vs TIE Fighter aspect, but that to me sounds like an entirely NEW and DIFFERENT game than what we're trying to do with GCW. Remember the specs we developed for Aburik? They were highly detailed, had "Action Points" and all of the units had a handful of special abilities, such that players were micromanaging 3-5 individual SFs, 1-2 AUX, and a NEB or something. A game like that sounds really fun, and is a worthy pursuit perhaps as a different entity... but to stick with the GCW brand, I think we need to focus on MACRO gameplay and not MICRO.

GCW I think should be an intergalactic geopolitical game reinforced with occasionally huge fleet on fleet battles. I think Hoppus would agree. The idea of capturing faction management with system control and fleet battles is the essence of the brand. We have the faction management and system control parameters in place with Supply Units and what not, so I think really the hurdle we need to focus on jumping is this new combat model that I think we ALL want to work in a fun and particular way that gives players that sense of awe when two huge fleets clash... as they do in the movies and books.

I think the solution might be in the "qualitative modifiers" and in a creative new way of looking at "capital ship fleets" like we have with SF squadrons and AUX groups.

Alpha Fleet (1 ISD, 3 VSDs, 6 CRAKs w/ 18 SF squads + 12 AUX groups)
Attack Rating: x
Defense: x
Bombard: %
Some other feature: x
# of SF/AUX on CSP: +modifier to defense rating
# of SF/AUX on Attack: +modifier to attack rating
Special Abilities (based from unit composition):
TIE Swarm (+modifer)
Orbital Bombardment
Battlefield Dominance
Etc.

In this model, we return to our Command Point feature but we treat Fleets as one collective individual unit. If we gave players some sort of limitation... like you cant have more than 3 fleets in the same system, then this prevents players from splitting up their units into smaller and smaller fleets and forces confrontations to occur at the micro-fleet level. After a battle, players could split their units up again and send multiple fleets back to their home systems. Alternatively, players could decide to just lump everything into one big fleet and give it a go... it don't matter!

Making sense?

Imagine a space battle where 2-3 of these Micro-Fleets square off in our current space grid. Each could move around and try and kill each other, but at the end of the day, it's just a few units you're keeping track of instead of 30... but we allow tactics and strategy all at the same time, especially when you factor in special abilities.

Game?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on October 05, 2013, 02:14:40 PM
This is gettign somewhere... :D
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 05, 2013, 05:11:19 PM
The secondary benefit in going with this Fleet model is that the same thing can work for ground battles. Just thought I should throw that in there. =)


Here's a live example... making some calculations using the same specs from this thread, I knocked a decimal place off and rounded everything to the hundredth. For SF and AUX I also rounded everything to the tenth decimal place, and I created a single "Combat Rating" by adding AR, DUR, and UCR.

Imperial Fleet 1
Composition: 1 ISD (Command Ship), 2 VSDs, 3 CRAKs
Support Units: (Space) 6 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Interceptors, 3 TIE Bombers, 1 TIE Avenger, 2 Skipray Blastboats, 6 Lambda Shuttles, 2 Stormtrooper Transports / (Ground) 14 Landing Barges, 1400 Infantry Squads, 5 AT-ATs, 15 AT-STs, 8 Speeder Bikes
Attack Rating: 1440
Durability: 1335
SF Combat Rating: 467
AUX Combat Rating: 504

This is basically where it gets interesting/fun. Nearly all of the strategy in this model takes place BEFORE the battle, in terms of how you configure your fleet, how its support units are utilized in either defensive or offensive positions, etc. Special Abilities are what will be the butter on the bread. How units are positioned in your fleet and the modifiers they grant will obviously make for some interesting combinations.

In the example above, now that we have some numbers to throw around, I could assign my SF to CSP, thereby letting them soak up SF/AUX Combat Damage before the Fleet gets hit, and instead use my AUX for a firepower boost. This sort of paper-rock-scissor scenario is what I think will be more fun than anything else.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on October 05, 2013, 07:14:22 PM
The fleet composition thing could be an interesting angle to pursue.  You could expand the strategy aspect of assembling a fleet and what it's made of a lot more, then as you say, once in combat, the abilities boil down any state of change.

Just to touch on something mentioned earlier, I think the ability to maneuver should be maintained, adapted to the system of choosing of course.  But I think a difference in a distance/Range for some abilities and how it relates to your compositions and such are important angle for differing, not to mention with composite fleet values/ability, all tracking is incredibly reduced making grids much much more manageable themselves.

Similar use for ground combat application could be very cool as well.  I think then we ought to look at treating ground units grouping larger, Infantry as Companies vehicles as squads etc.  So you end up sticking a bunch of Vehicle Squad and Infantry Companies together to form your army.  maybe Covert infantry squads would be a feature? Medical Companies to improve a Army durability.  Artillery squadrons give long range attack abilities etc.   ATAT squadrons would just be plain beasts.


I like concept of 1 Fleet/Army per grid space as well.  Helps keep the game board not a mangled mess.

Hex Grids are still optimal imo ;p  any range beyond adjacent easily translates in to a "ring".
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 08, 2013, 08:48:01 AM
Summary of Current Concepts

1. Hex Grid that is usable in both Space and Ground.

2. Simplified specs with a handful of ratings and some special abilities.

3. Fleets and Armies are lumped into single composite units.

4. Unit-to-Unit Combat ought to be done in a familiar and similar fashion (i.e. fleets moving around shooting at each other).

5. A structured Order of Battle ought to be in place to allow combat to be broken down into phases where specific game functions occur. This also eliminates the need to post every 24 hours and have your hands tied to the clock, and allows participants to know beforehand the level of commitment prior to the battle.


I think if we can all agree on those points, then we can move ahead with generating some specs and special abilities and doing some more testing.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on October 10, 2013, 07:30:31 PM
Je suis d'accord!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on October 13, 2013, 12:28:38 AM
I will be honest. The idea that we will be MACRO gaming again, makes me more excited for this and more likely to stick around. I just never liked the more micro gaming. Felt too small.

That being said, we need to make MACRO easier, which it seems like lumping fleets together will do. I think this has real promise.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on October 16, 2013, 08:20:51 PM
Why is no one speaking to me?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on October 16, 2013, 11:48:26 PM
  Didnt seem reciprocity was in order for that, but if it soothes you..

   Speak speak speak speak speak. ;)

    Side note for the Poll here, maybe get more notice if own thread?  I kind of accidentally saw it =)

    To answer it tho, not really anything i could pick that is ideal to me.  Im tryin to just contribute but work on my story in back.  If we gonna make a certifiable game of it something brand new to us in recent memory would be cool, like force user focus.  Combine lite rpg and unit battle gaming elements.  I dont mind a sandbox to frame an over arching story or game board, and even think in a wa for a concrete game, a whole represented galaxy can be a lot.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 22, 2013, 05:29:28 PM
Opening this up for public debacle.

IMPERIAL FLEET
Composition: 1 ISD, 2 VSD, 3 CRAK
Combat Support Group: 13 TIE Squadrons, 8 AUX Groups
Ground Army: N/A
Fleet AR: 1440
Fleet DUR: 1335
Fleet UCR: 4.5
CSG Attack Rating (CSG AR): 689 (3 TIE Interceptors + 3 TIE Bombers + 1 TIE Avenger + 4 Stormtrooper Transports + 2 Skipray Blastboats)
CSG Defense Rating: 318 (6 TIE Fighters + 4 Lambda Shuttles)


REPUBLIC FLEET
Composition: 1 MC80, 2 RAF, 3 NEB
Combat Support Group: 10 SF Squadrons, 12 AUX Groups
Ground Army: N/A
Fleet AR: 960
Fleet DUR: 1085
Fleet UCR: 4.3
CSG AR: 598 (4 X-Wings + 2 Y-Wings + 2 A-Wings + 2 B-Wings)
CSG DR: 1086 (6 Assault Transports + 6 Lambda Shuttles)


Possible attack formula:

(Fleet AR + CSG AR - Target CSG DR) x UCR = Damage

Battle Round 1:
Imperial Feet attacks Republic Fleet: (1440 + 689 - 1086) x UCR (4.5/4.3) = 1092 Damage
Republic Fleet returns fire: (960 + 598 - 318) x UCR (4.3/4.5) = 1185 Damage

Both sides process destroyed units before beginning round 2. It's up to the player to determine which units get lost, but the damage must be resolved before continuing the battle or retreating. Round 2 could be completely different, since the Imperial commander may sacrifice his CSG and a CRAK or some combination of everything. Either way, you'll be looking at a new Fleet for round 2, once that is slimmer.

Both sides will progressively destroy each other, and so it comes down to whoever has the most units really, or who winds up staying or leaving.

Observations...

I think UCR may require some tweaking. Perhaps breaking it down into an Offensive Combat Rating and Defensive Combat Rating could be an option. I also think SF/AUX specs need to be reworked to bring back UCR, such that it matters what specific units in your CSG you place on Attack or CSP.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: XCALIBYR on October 24, 2013, 01:42:35 AM
It's up to the player to determine which units get lost

Bloody fantastic.  No, really.  This will allow for creative battle posting. 

I don't know what numbers are being plugged in where, but in the final draft I think they should be as small as possible.  Like... 1 for a squadron of TIE Fighters.  Just so we don't end up with AR: 15000.  Smaller numbers just seem more manageable and I don't want fleet sizes to suffer for it.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on October 24, 2013, 08:49:13 AM
Here were the specs I was using. The numbers are based from the GCW specs we've been using... just recalculated. In order to keep the scale manageable, the numbers are about as low as they can get. I'm sure everything could be divided by 10 if we really wanted to break it down even further, but I like keeping fleets in the four-digit value range just so they feel big.


SPECS:

ISD
Attack Rating: 432
Durability: 480
UCR: 3
Docking Bay: 150m
Tractor Beams: 1000m
Unit Capacity:
6 TIE Squadrons
6 AUX Groups
10 Landing Barges
1000 Infantry Squads
20 GAV Groups

VSD
Attack Rating: 384
Durability: 270
UCR: 3
Docking Bay: 100m
Tractor Beams: 500m
Unit Capacity:
2 TIE Squadrons
2 AUX Groups
2 Landing Barges
200 Infantry Squads
4 GAV Groups

CRAK
Attack Rating: 80
Durability: 105
UCR: 6
Docking Bay: 12 External Racks
Tractor Beams: 200m
Unit Capacity:
1 TIE Squadron

TIE Fighter Squadron
Combat Rating: 25

TIE Bomber Squadron
Combat Rating: 44

TIE Interceptor Squadron
Combat Rating: 41

TIE Avenger Squadron
Combat Rating: 62



MC-80
Attack Rating: 270
Durability: 455
UCR: 3
Docking Bay: 100m
Tractor Beams: 500m
Unit Capacity:
4 Heavy SF Squadrons
4 AUX Groups
3 Medium Transports
300 Infantry Squads
6 GAV Groups


RAF
Attack Rating: 240
Durability: 180
UCR: 4
Docking Bay: 6 Auxiliary Racks
Tractor Beams: None
Unit Capacity:
1 AUX Group

NEB
Attack Rating: 70
Durability: 90
UCR: 5
Docking Bay: 50m
Tractor Beams: 200m
Unit Capacity:
2 SF Squadrons
2 AUX Groups

CORV
Attack Rating: 24
Durability: 53
UCR: 7
Docking Bay: None
Tractor Beam: 100m
Unit Capacity:
10 Infantry Squads
Special Features:
Blockade Runner -- If this unit lost a battle and must retreat, it gets a bonus attack prior to leaving the system.

A-Wing Squadron
Combat Rating: 41

B-Wing Squadron
Combat Rating: 85

X-Wing Squadron
Combat Rating: 61

Y-Wing Squadron
Combat Rating: 71

-----------------

Lambda Shuttle Group
Combat Rating: 42

Stormtrooper Transport Group
Combat Rating: 60

Skipray Blastboat Group
Combat Rating: 66

Republic Assault Transport Group
Combat Rating: 139
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 09, 2014, 05:42:43 PM
Greg is working on a new game concept. Was anyone still interested in using these sorts of specs for units? Phase-driven combat (no with no timetable)? Event-driven campaigns? Objective-specific victory/defeat conditions?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 09, 2014, 06:11:57 PM
We know that we have 2-4 players at any given time.

We know that players can't be sitting at the computer posting multiple times a day - we're not 13 years old anymore I guess!

We know the tactical combat part of the game seems to be limited by the online and text-based nature - no physical board, physical units to move around like with miniatures.

So, where do we go from here?

We can do something similar to older sims - fire arcs, SF combat charts, grids, players controlling larger fleets (maybe 2-3 active ISDs and 2-3 support craft for each of them, in terms of size), big galaxy map, and all of that. But what generally happens is - this is too big time-wise and in terms of the game (with 1 player per side, and 100s of systems, each battle seems... meaningless at some stage). Also, this tends to end up with Player 1 attacks Player 2 at X, so Player 2 takes his fleet to attack Player 1 at Y... which ends up being pretty lame.

We can do something smaller, reducing the scope of the game - by territory, by setting 'win conditions' for each player to work towards, by planning games to run about 4-6 months, then coming up with a new scenario (for example, a scenario where Empire, Rebels and CSA have some reason to be disputing in the same area of space, each with its own objectives). This sort of game would require some innovation, so that win conditions could exist - our old games are simply build and destroy.

It's tough to say where to go.

I long for just an old school AE experience but when I think on it long enough, I know the game will end up as described above - the tic-for-tac battles and all that.

The smaller scenario win-scenario games of 4-6 months are exciting concept but I've yet to think up how to structure a game so that it might work that way, and still involve tactical gaming (fire arcs, grids, etc). This seems to hold the most promise, with a GM pulling some strings to keep the game moving.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Also is Dementat around at all anymore?


Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 09, 2014, 10:27:01 PM
I reached out to him and hopefully will hear back from him.

Also, I am for older sims!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 10, 2014, 01:10:56 AM
I think the concept we might be getting at is a sort of GCW: The Lost Campaigns, because we will be focusing on short-term game runs with a limited scope in terms of the galaxy, sort of like The Outer Rim Sieges from the Clone Wars. Instead of dealing with 100s of systems, or even dozens of systems, we focus on literally a handful of systems at a time.

(This map kicks the most ass: http://wrvh.home.xs4all.nl/galaxymap/galaxymap.pdf)

Here is a section:
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/galmap_zps84141a80.png)

With a "Lost Campaigns" concept, one of our games could be "The Seswenna Conflicts" or something of that nature. 10 or less systems.

An idea I was pitching to Greg was that we set automatic timers for certain events to happen: on the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th of each month, NPC things will happen at each system. Perhaps one of those events is "The infamous smuggling cartel G9 Crew arrives at System X with massive shipments of black market goods", and it can be up to the player to stop or accelerate these events as they unfold by tasking their units however the player decides.

Committing units to non-combat tasks could be just as equally important to combat duty such as raids or even invasions. In either case, the cost/benefit will have to be balanced by the player.

This sort of game mechanic is highly complex, but with enough planning and game development could be streamlined and automated such that players will know each weekly event at every system and will be able to plan accordingly.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 10, 2014, 01:55:34 AM
I love this plan. Let me sleep on it and provide some thoughts in the mornin.  I have a few already but need to think a bit before commiting to them yet.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 09:10:48 AM
I think campaigns is the only direction to go in.

This would of course require a few things

1. A Game Master responsible for each campaign - designing the overall scenario and some of the NPC milestones. This is going to be a hard task, though, I think, if players are going to have fleets (of any size) and be from competing factions. It will require some real skill to craft scenarios that are fulfilling and open enough yet still guided enough that things come off.

2. Some sort of dice component, a la RPG. For things like "does the ISD detect the cargo type" on the ships above and the like, so it's not just a straight line from one event to the next, and so players, too, have to deal with things not coming off as they planned, or coming off even better.

3. Combat rules that work and are satisfying. I'm not sure our traditional combat rules would be in this scenario - they are pretty linear and outcomes are quite predictable. I've said this many times before, what made them 'work' (when they did) was the group dynamic of having 10+ players organizing and planning together and working as a team. My recommendation here? Dice, I think.

I think we have to look at the traditional RPG for some inspiration, and cherry pick mechanics and ideas that will work for us on here. I don't have a clear picture of how that might be at the moment - and my mind is open to something more traditional if something fun and satisfying can be designed, but I with dice and more RPG influence an ISD trying to capture a freighter of stolen cargo would be more interesting than if you just gave them the GCWII rule book ("ISD locks five tractors on freighter, captures it, the end!")


I also think that we need to talk a bit more specific about what campaigns would look like and how they would be designed, assuming you have 1 GM and at least 2 players. What's the scale? Do players have 1-character or a group of characters and ships that they can task as they like and improve as they like - and carry them into the next campaigns (assuming they survive)? I like this second option personally. You get a pool of resources including fighters, officers, soldiers, whatever and you customize them as you like. Each player's task force of units has some sort of orders from above that sends them into the campaign, and from there the GM has to pull strings and kick ass drawing players into the story...

Also there's the question of how far up the chain is the Player - is there an NPC Admiral on his Star Destroyer giving him orders, or at least keeping tabs on them (to keep them on course maybe). Or are they the Admiral with total control, other than the larger orders that sent them in?

Lots of game design questions here.


Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 01:25:33 PM
Rolled 1d6+2 : 4 + 2, total 6


We have dice rolling. it works as a BBC code - you see the small die in the menu below the Change Color option when posting. Inside of the ROLL bracket, you put what you want to roll - 1d6 (1 six-sided die) etc. More directions here: http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=2032

If you modify your post, then it will flag that the post was modified and the dice roll might have been tampered. Useful. We could do dice rolls at the end of posts... an option.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 01:26:14 PM
(http://swsimforum.com/Themes/swsf/images/dice_warn.gif) This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 2d6+2 : 1, 3 + 2, total 6

Tampered roll.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 10, 2014, 01:44:46 PM
I too was thinking something along the lines of a standing fleet.

Something like: 1 ISD,1 VSD(or DRED), 2 Lancers and 2 Carracks.

That would be your standing fleet. Maybe based on the situation that we have setup then you gain or lose forces.

We def. need dice to make things easier. Hmmmm.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 10, 2014, 02:38:29 PM
(http://swsimforum.com/Themes/swsf/images/dice_warn.gif) This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 1d20 : 1, total 1

Hmmm. With the addition of a tamper-free dice mechanic, this opens the door to all sorts of possibilities.

In terms of scale, earlier in this thread we tossed around the idea of composite Fleet/Army units, which gives the players the option of utilizing multiple fleets simultaneously. If we have a 4-player game, then I think this is the way to go. Limiting ourselves to one fleet only makes the game too linear. If the Imperial player(s) were representing Oversector Outer for instance, they would have multiple ISDs and dozens of support vessels to work with. This makes the cat-and-mouse game in a 10-System playing field a lot more interesting, because you could flex your units for offense, defense, or other operations.

Rolled 10d10 : 10, 3, 2, 5, 10, 9, 1, 9, 1, 7, total 57
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 02:40:36 PM
a 1!! You suck!!  :o

Rolled 1d20 : 4, total 4
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 02:41:01 PM
a 4!!?


Rolled 1d20 : 6, total 6

Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 10, 2014, 02:44:35 PM
Imperial Star Destroyer
Fires 60 Turbolasers at CORV Rebel.
Forward Arc:
Rolled 20d10 : 1, 4, 8, 6, 9, 1, 8, 10, 4, 6, 4, 5, 8, 2, 8, 9, 3, 9, 3, 8, total 116

Starboard Arc:
Rolled 20d10 : 10, 6, 2, 7, 1, 9, 2, 3, 1, 5, 1, 6, 5, 1, 2, 2, 6, 4, 4, 10, total 87

Port Arc:
Rolled 20d10 : 1, 1, 9, 7, 10, 7, 3, 2, 8, 3, 8, 10, 2, 2, 4, 5, 8, 1, 10, 6, total 107
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 02:58:52 PM
Hm, theres a way around dice roll tampering. I can turn off the ability modify posts though, which would fix that.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 10, 2014, 03:08:39 PM
I think the best solution is to have the GM be the dice roller, especially for events like scanning, intercepting smugglers, etc. If there is a neutral party doing the dice rolls, then they'll be honest and prevent players from manipulating the system.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 10, 2014, 04:48:22 PM
Hmmm. I am torn. I think making the GM responsible gives a lot of work/puts a lot of pressure on the GM.

Locking posts from modifications could also work but I am not sure that is the answer either. What if I have a glaring typo I want to see fixed? Do I need to ask permission?

One way to make things easier could be to come up with damage points per Arc.

Then a roll of 1 100 sided die to then tell the percentage of damage that that bow arc did.

Example: Bow of ISD does 580 damage.
Rolled 1d100 : 43, total 43


Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 10, 2014, 04:59:43 PM
I HAVE IT!!!!!!!!

We make a seperate folder where only dice rolls are recorded. No modificatons allowed. You do your dice rolls for percentage etc and then insert that into our regular SL posts.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 10, 2014, 06:56:50 PM
I'm reading the Star Wars Saga Edition core rule book to get some ideas about the RPG aspects using dice.

I think what we know is however we do it, something streamlined and end of turn orientated is ideal, in a manner that it won't interrupt the flow of the players posting.

I invision dice being used also in character movements, decisions, and interaction with the sector - for example imagine the Seswenna campaign involved the Imperial task force being sent to the capitol to investigate a recent piracy/smuggling ring bust up; there would be posts with characters meeting the governor, investigating and finding out shit that moves the story forward... etc.. and in certain key interactions, dice would be rolled based on the character's abilities - maybe effecting if they notice a clue or if their charm works on the locals etc etc, which shapes the details of the story. I think its key that this be a part of the game - with combat coming every now and again - either on small scale (characters attacked), medium scale (a small raid with walkers and troops on a warehouse or some such), or larger scale (all out space battles and the like).
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 11, 2014, 08:57:24 AM
I can see that working nicely.

What help do you need from me?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 11, 2014, 11:03:24 AM
Honestly, the last thing I want to do is manage 2-3 firing arcs for 5-10 units, and rolling dice for each of them. Combat should be streamlined, and math-based, not dice-based. I agree that dice should be utilized for non-combat actions that directly impact the game's story. If that's the case, we can keep dice-rolls limited and officiated by GM/3rd Party player.

How I envision it... suppose we have:
Seswenna Sector
1. Sullust
2. Eriadu
3. Omwat
4. Clak'dor VII
5. Xagobah
6. Shadda-Bi Boran
7. Arbra

Every month or as soon as an event is completed, the GM could roll a 1d7, which will elect one of the systems to experience a random event. That random event could be based on a metric with different pre-scripted events (that a d10 roll would select). For example:

1. Pirate Raid, 2. Rebel Uprising, 3. NPC Rebel Hero (maybe some Rebel sympathizer with a full-blown smuggling circuit) crucial to the progress of the game arrives in the system, 4. NPC Imperial Hero (maybe some Grand Moff) arrives in the system to oversee progress (bringing with him a surge of defense units), 5. Large Scale Naval Battle, 6. Small Scale Naval Battle, 7. Large-Scale Ground Battle, 8. Small Scale Ground Battle, 9. Diplomatic Event, 10. Primary Story Event

So, here we go:

System:
Rolled 1d7 : 1, total 1

Event:
Rolled 1d10 : 5, total 5
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 11, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Okay, so Battle of Sullust would be the first game event!

At this point, we'd need some sort of victory condition. Perhaps through the entire Lost Campaigns game, players are vying for Influence. Outcomes of events determine the amount of Influence a faction obtains. After a certain amount is reached, the game ends and that faction effective wins the Sector. Rinse and repeat.

Obviously, a new and different creative story will be required for every Sector, such that events aren't just pre-scripted random encounters but actually do something for the game and the characters involved.

So what I suggest is this: we work backwards. Instead of coming up with factions and combat systems, we come up with characters and then design an appropriate game around them.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 11, 2014, 01:32:49 PM
Using that logic I am doing an Imperial Admiral.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 11, 2014, 02:16:39 PM


DICE?! Excuse me a minute, I need to find a dark isolated corner to handle something. . .
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 11, 2014, 02:36:20 PM
[Disclaimer:  All just my opinion - I am firm beleiver in Die Rolls to add randomness to any strategy combat game.  Static numbers alone irk me as absolutely everything becomes predictable and eventually routine patterns form. For myself, keepign track of how many dice need to be rolled is a much better option than mental management of large value numbers.]


  OK.  Here's an idea that is closely taken from how dice and actions work in X-Wing Miniatures. . .

 
   You have Attack Dice and Defense Dice.  Both are 8 sided with slightly different markers.

   For attack dice you have the following. . .

   4 faces are Blast markers, which are Hits (assign #s 1-4)  2 faces are Eyeballs, which are Focus icons (assign #s 5 & 6), 2 faces are blank (assign #s 7 & 8)

   For defense dice you have the following. . .

   4 faces are squiggly lines, which denote evades and cancel out hit die at 1:1 ratio (assign #s 1-4).  2 faces are Eyeballs which are Focus icons (assign #s 5 & 6). and 2 faces are blank (assign #s 7 & 8)

 

    Hits vs Evades are self explanatory.  Blanks count for nothing. Focus' can work 1 of two ways, A Focus is an ACTION.  (each ship may commit to 1 action, once per round, PRIOR to attacking).  A Focus action can be used to help your Attack or Your Defense.  If you've commited to a Focus before your attack, then when you roll your attack die, if you roll a Focus icon/#, you can spend that committed Focus action to change any Focus icons/#s you roll and change them to either a Hit or an Evade (depending which end of the attack you're on).


    So every uncancelled Hit is of course 1 Hit.  This is getting away from larger Hit POints and individual weapons values.  Cuts down on some calculating for the player, instead of raw numbers it makes all numbers more strategical considerations.  The bar is set at X-Wings (3Atk, 2 Def, 5 HP) and TIE Fighters (2 Atk, 3 DEF, 3 HP).

   There are then additional actions ships can perform obviously.  Some are unique to only certain ships, others are somewhat generic.  For instance, almost all TIE craft have EVADE as an action.  Most choose from either FOCUS or EVADE.  Commiting to an Evade gives you basically 1 Free Evaded Hit before any die rolling.  Focus however can be used for both Offense or Defense, so you have to choose the risk v reward.

   Other ACTIONS are Barrel Rolls (mroe complex to utilize here as it pertains to firing arcs in terms of usefulness really).  Target Locks also feature prominently especialyl for Rebel Ships.  Target Locks ACTIONS allow you to reroll any number of Attack Die 1 time.



    Another easily transplantable (depending on scale) concept are Pilot Skills.  In X-wing mini it ranges from 1-9.  Perhaps we'd benefit to keep it a smaller scale, something like 1-3.  Pilot Skills determine when in the ORder of Battle a ship moves and/or attacks.  In the movement phase, Lower Pilot Skills move first.  In the Attack Phase, higher pilot skills attack first.


The phases of a round for X-Wing Mini are. . .

   Secretly Choose Maneuvers and Place Indicator Face Down  ->  All players reveal all dials once all have choosen  ->  Ships are moved in ascending order according to Pilot Skill  ->  After each individual ship moves, it may commit to an action  ->  Once all ships move and choose actions the combat phase begins with the Highest Pilot skill attacking first
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 11, 2014, 03:20:16 PM
1.  Onboard with idea of limited scope applied through shifting campaigns i.e. GCW TLC.  I think if that mode and the idea of Time Markers for events is adopted, a general idea for duration of a campaign is worth considering.  3 Months perhaps per Campaign Start/End date?  And if a Final battle happens to extend past deadline, well the Battle goes to completion as I'd presume no matter what we do, Battles will still take a little time to sort out.


2.  I love dice.  I love dice in any aspect.  Now that we finally have a dice roller, I'm highly averse to concept of dice not playing some role in combat at least to add chance.  I've hated large static values since dawn of time.  Dice cut to the chase and cut out certain aspects of calculating.  Rather than calculating and multiplying large values, you are simply comparing values on a handful of dice, many of which render each other null.  The numerical strategy then is simply finding ways to increase your Attack Dice/Defense Dice and modify them rather than plugging and chugging raw values.


3.  If we are using GM, I'd like to see GM roles limited so that it is a post someone occupies only ancillary to their Player role.  Otherwise with a full fledged GM with lots of responsibility you lose some of the value of the activitiy of another player.  GM can wind up being spread pretty thin to handle multiple NPC interactions at a given time.  Unless it's more of an actual facilitating role to an RPGish game which might work out fine.

4.  IMO battle mechanics should be centered around idea of smaller skirmish engagements.  It's just a personal preference but I find it to be a more manageable scale with much more reward when combined with an intrguing unpredictable system.



DIT - I really don't think you can go wrong with just picking a planet/star system, and having an ISD that arrives at the start of the game.  Script in the intro competiting entites planetside, outright civil war, one faction anti-Imperial, perhaps dwindling resource returns for the Empire?  Anything along those lines, anything that would attract one of the Empire's most fearesome warships and influence to the area more directly.  It's a great starting point for any character a player would choose, be it someone in the populace that is otherwise just living their life until that day changed their destiny, be it an active rebel cell, be it an Imperial admiral, a smuggler waiting at one of the local capital cities spaceports to depart with his illicit cargo, and now he's either stuck there or trying to get out without attracting attention.  (i.e. if the dice rolls help him get out, maybe his next job brings him back, this time smuggling in weapons for the rebel cell?).   Limitless.

   Should the Rebel Cell ever somehow destroy the ISD.  Well that's an epic story and battle moment for everyone to share on somehow.  And I'm sure Imperial response would be interesting.  That or maybe that is the End Game for that Campaign.

   Just thoughts.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 11, 2014, 03:45:57 PM
I am on board with everything except for small scale. I have always and will always like the larger scale as long as we make it manageable.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 11, 2014, 05:55:39 PM
1. I know GCW: Rise of the Empire has been sluggish as of late, but I think that idea of a character-driven collective story is what is appealing (even if only a handful have written SLs for it). So personally I would like us all to maybe talk about what character angle they want to pursue (assuming a Post Hoth timeline perhaps), and that can help us collective design and implement a system where an Imperial Admiral has just as much weight on the story as a lone Rebel smuggler.

2. Earlier in this thread the idea of collective flotillas/armies seemed popular, so I think if we pursued the composite unit model, it would be rewarding, particularly because it can be down or up-scaled no matter what the battle is.

3. Dice are good, but let's not go dice crazy with everything.

4. Presumably, this would be a sort of game where out of 7 systems, the total Imperial presence in the sector would include 3 ISDs, 7~9 VSDs, and 20~30 support ships (Lancers, Carracks, etc). It's enough power to dominate a few systems outright, or simply maintain a general presence throughout. On the other hand, I see the Rebel Alliance as having a numerically bigger but less damaging fleet: 1 MC80 (possibly acting as a mobile HQ for the Sector), 4~6 DREADs/RAFs, dozens of NEBs and CORVs, 20+ support ships (bulk transports, oversized aux, etc.). Which brings me to my next point...

5. If you lose a big ship... that sucks for you! Having finite resources at the start of the game adds that much more of a challenge for the duration of the Campaign. On the same side of the coin, very limited income could be rewarded based on player actions (securing trade networks between planets, either through Free or Black Markets for example). Major construction projects will be "off site". This makes the overall game about expanding your economy and influence in the sector for your faction or for yourself. Raids are about money, battles are about politics.

That's all I have for now...
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 11, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
I like the idea of being in the same game/world/battle and maybe being a Fringe guy in a Freighter. I won't be gaming against 3 ISDs but skirmishing certain TIE fighters or whatever while trying to get away. Could this work at the same time as the larger scale battle? Maybe for players in a micro situation, its the same battle, only they interact with a small part of it...
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 11, 2014, 08:33:26 PM
    I like the basic premise of character driven aspects.  So in that spirit the rules and entire game should be built around best embracing what we all want to do.

    Gal wants to see a fleet, Hop wants to smuggle and fringe,  I want to do moderate scale ground combat tooth and nail Rebel Alliance vs Empire shit, like squads, platoons, companies etc. 

     What do you want to see to be playable Hale or are you more interested in GMing and facilitating only?

    I'm not entirely convinced that 7 star systems is a limited enough scope to do all those angles adequately and keep the character driven story interaction together and affecting each other.  I could be wrong, just not convinced.  Just to go on record my personal preference and suggestion would be to finally focus a game around a single star system. 

    A single main planet that goes from a small burning ember of Rebellion to a full fledged conventional military battle that seems to last for the entire Galactic Civil War.  A battle for a world that becomes synonymous for the War between the Rebellion and Empire.  A battle that the Empire dare not simply bombard the world to dust, but to individually pluck out each traitorous heart as an example.  A symbolic story encompassing locking of horns between the might of both. . .goose bumps! ;p

    At that point no matter what character angle you take its interesting as hell, and everyone is involved in whatever niche their writing drive may take them.  I'd be willing to manipulate the entire Rebellion ground constituency in the engagement, but not if it's that mob up in a couple of spaces or one space and throw them all together type of battling.  I'd rather make the whole Battle a microcosm of the Galactic Civil War that happens in skirmishes across vast territory but only covered a small section at a time.  Itd have to be all sorts of maps that only constitute small regions of the world here and there so that battles aren't everything everyone has at this place at once.  Can help make these if adopted.

   You could totally keep the scale of fleets that are described to fill Gal's fix.  Just that presumably only one faction has a fleet that is a more full time presence.  Maybe it's a system of getting driven off, and returning later replenished to try and retake blockade position?  You could keep Events, which sound like an awesome idea in basis with the die rolls to determine what.  If no one interested in taking helm of a Rebel fleet, then you could make an event that a Rebel fleet shows up to try and break blockade, GM controls it for battle.  If Rebs win and Empire driven off, Gal is in retreat story mode and working up his way back with a fleet again.  Maybe he has some angles to play little covert Imperial strikes and things of that nature (if he wanted) ?

   Rambling.  Just saying that to better accomodate what everyone wants to do I think it's easier to focus on a single star system.  And there's my convoluted argument for it ;)

   Unless there are multiple people out there who are going to be doing large scale engagements in a game angle?  As I've read thus far only Gal has expressed such interest.


  Additions -  We can still make it a game of controlling resources, or focus more specifically on RPGish aspects of character maturation.  Whatever really people want to see, just centered on one star system (can be few planets if wanted whole system, just one central which is the main stage?, I will happily make, even research and use a canon star system if desired, Core world perhaps?)  You could either use a system of building up resource over a period of time to commit to engage the enemy in a battle.  Like if I'm controlling rebel army, to launch some offensives, I have to smuggle in so many shipments of weapons or something if the Imp fleet is currently in blockade, if the Reb fleet were in blockade, I could launch attacks whenever and wherever on the planet I wanted.  I Imp fleet is in blockade, maybe I can only launch attacks adjacent to areas I already have a majority control of.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 11, 2014, 09:14:52 PM
Personally, my initial idea was being a higher up in the rebel operations on the planet.

However, it might be fun to be a colonel or some rank, who is on the Governor's staff and in charge of the world's garrison. A miserable bu cunning bastard. That would create conflict between me an Eid's legions as well as Gall if he is the big-shot Admiral sent out basically saying to my character - you aren't doing a good enough job, I'm taking over and now you answer to me... to some degree. Anyway, a character with his own traumas and lust for power.. a real sick bastard that has antagonized the population at large in his hunt for rebels and what not - and paranoid as all fuck... an embodiment of the darkest sides of what THE EMPIRE means in Star Wars...

Hm I like this idea!

Obviously there would be secondary characters - The Governor, Majors or whatever under his command, other political and aristocratic/social persons in the sphere of influence of the Governor, etc...

Could be damned interesting, that...
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 11, 2014, 10:07:58 PM

   Here an idea pertaining to single planet focus Blockade dynamics.  Initial thought is Blockade in entirety or not at all, but thought maybe it would help better serve Gal's interests if Blockade dynamic was also broken down in to zones of control as Ground combat would be.  Something like this. .

(http://cunymathblog.commons.gc.cuny.edu/files/2012/04/sphere_4.jpg)

   So you have 4 quadrants.  8 would work well if you could find a good illustration to use for it, I can't yet.  If adopted would work to adapt this one to actually displaying a planet and what not.

   Anyway, here, 4 quadrants that can be controlled from space.  You could start game out that Rebel Fleet and Imperial Fleet both occupy 1 Space.   Then you design dynamics around shifting that power about.  Actual number battles take place to shift control one way or another, or a fleet can split up and occupy two spaces with two smaller groups at the risk of being spread but at benefit of controlling more zones. The idea of this part of game is to get control of all 4 quadrants to completely blockade planet and help your side flourish in the ground war.  Space Battles could then take place on smaller focused grids with more spaces and such or via some other dynamic, or simply compiled mass units or however the people who'd play that angle of it all would want to see?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 11, 2014, 11:36:32 PM
I wouldn't mind taking a more space-oriented approach. Personally I am more drawn to the mid-to-large scale naval battles (1 ISD and company vs. NEBs & CORVs), and wouldn't mind taking helm of the Rebel Fleet for the campaign and GM'ing.

I like the idea of a lot of action concentrating on one planet, but for purposes of raids, battles, smuggling to-and-fro, opening the game up to a Sector, even if we just utilize a few worlds in practice, just feels better for me. If we stick with the Seswenna Sector, simply using Eriadu and Sullust as our "main stage" systems with the others in the background might work.

As we're discussing all of this, I just want to bring up the bad memories of SWSF Legends RPG, and the Aburik Cluster. One fizzled out, the other got burned out in development hell. Whatever we decide, the game should be fast-paced, scalable, and focused on a few victory conditions so we don't get bored nor dragged into a massive group SL that requires everyone to post according to some short order timetable. I'm of the opinion that collaboration should be rewarded, not required.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 11, 2014, 11:49:07 PM
I am really digging this.

The way I see it is a decently important planet starts having some rebellion. The Governor tries to stop it. Asks for help from Sector fleet(me). I send some ships, things get out of hand I have to send more ships and then other flare ups start. I have to balanace keeping this key world secure with letting the rest of the sector devolve into open rebellion.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 12, 2014, 07:53:38 AM
I wouldn't mind taking a more space-oriented approach. Personally I am more drawn to the mid-to-large scale naval battles (1 ISD and company vs. NEBs & CORVs), and wouldn't mind taking helm of the Rebel Fleet for the campaign and GM'ing.

I like the idea of a lot of action concentrating on one planet, but for purposes of raids, battles, smuggling to-and-fro, opening the game up to a Sector, even if we just utilize a few worlds in practice, just feels better for me. If we stick with the Seswenna Sector, simply using Eriadu and Sullust as our "main stage" systems with the others in the background might work.

As we're discussing all of this, I just want to bring up the bad memories of SWSF Legends RPG, and the Aburik Cluster. One fizzled out, the other got burned out in development hell. Whatever we decide, the game should be fast-paced, scalable, and focused on a few victory conditions so we don't get bored nor dragged into a massive group SL that requires everyone to post according to some short order timetable. I'm of the opinion that collaboration should be rewarded, not required.

Legends RPG was quite different from what we're talking about here I think - at least in my mind this is more open and less turn by turn and there's room to explore the world as you like.

I think an important thing to acknowledge here then is that there isn't some large game mechanic that will determine space battles and the like - instead we'd be coordinating story reasons? Like Eid's character is smuggling in armor and so maybe that info gets leaked and it leads to a skirmish in space - or whatever, story reasons for the space battles to take place?

I think I would be happy planet-based (most of the time). This scenario - a sort of backwater planet with an inept Govenor turning into a flashpoint of rebellion activity (just after Hoth) sets a good stage to jump into - in other attempts, the stage had been to wide open for me to really sink into I think. I like this - I have two characters in mind - and I'd like to do small trooper skirmishes and perhaps occasionally larger ones. We could set these up through story then create a custom map for each engagement (between Eid and I and if the others join) and then use some set of rules that are streamlined for the combat...

Anyway, dumping thoughts before getting to work. I'll be checking in.


EDIT: Just to be clear I like the idea of limitless systems available if the story takes you there, though probably all in the same region of galaxy more or less. But one world would be the sort of boots-on-the-ground stage, and other actions on other worlds would be related to what is happening or characters or doing in the stage-world.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 12, 2014, 07:56:52 AM
Also I should add, not crazy about the sector - Eiradu and Sullust aren't very ripe for exploring our own stuff.

Quenelli sector (galactic north) has some backwater worlds that aren't really featured much in SW sources but have some data on them - some big space ports and MFG places in the sector. We could choose one of those worlds and make it the Sector Capital and work from there. Or choose something even more remote.

I would prefer something that is 'backwater' and that the characters in this would know they are in backwater regions.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 12, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
I think the Seswenna Sector is ripe for exploration and fertile for story backgrounds! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seswenna_sector

Here is a full write up of the sector according to Wookiepedia.

Eriadu, nuff said!

Seswenna was a planet in Seswenna sector. It was the original sector capital, but lost its political and economic dominance to Eriadu. Seswenna had been on the Hydian Way, but the Way was rerouted through Eriadu to reflect economic realities. Seswenna, and the rest of the Seswenna sector, were briefly lost to the Sith Empire during the Great Galactic War. It was also the birth place of Conan Antonio Motti, an influent admiral of the Galactic Empire's naval forces.

Adras was an Imperial-held planet. Nezan was a city on the planet, on the outskirts of which there was an Imperial detention center. Around 4 ABY, the planet served as the rendezvous site between a group of Alliance to Restore the Republic operatives and group of Sullustan agents from Alliance Intelligence. After a skirmish with Imperials, the Rebel operatives rescued the Sullustans and fled to the Alliance fleet at Sullust.

Agomar was a planet in the Agomar system of the Seswenna sector. During the Battle of Agomar, the Confederacy of Independent Systems pitted its Droid Army against the Grand Army of the Republic, with the world eventually falling back onto Republic control.

Brintooin was a planet in the Outer Rim Territories covered in plains, deserts, swamps, and a few mountains. It was the home base of the Imperial Hammers Elite Armor Unit. After the Battle of Endor, Imperial Governor Thalkuss maintained nominal control of the planet; but he relied on the presence of Colonel Zel Johans, commander of the Hammers, to retain control.

Dzass IV was a planet in the Dzass system. It was the location of the Lunis-Medix Medical Academy.

Eczar was a world in the Outer Rim Territories' Seswenna sector. It was known for its extensive financial networks. The Imperial agent Vacander had a bank account on Eczar, which was discovered by the Rebel Alliance Intelligence operative P. Essex Yerac.

Luptoom was a member world of the Galactic Republic. The inhabitants of Luptoom were Humans, who were known for their outrageous taste in fashion. Naboo was halfway between Coruscant and Luptoom, which indicated that Luptoom was in the Outer Rim.

Mirnic was a planet in the Seswenna sector of the Outer Rim.

Orryxia was a planet in the Orryxia system, in the Outer Rim Territories near Eriadu. It was home to the Orryxians, a sentient species sometimes given the derogatory nickname "Cats." It was also home to the orycat, a small woodland predator. Wilek Nereus, the Imperial Governor of Bakura, visited the planet and obtained a dental specimen of the orycat but was unable to complete a comprehensive survey of the creature's environment due to adverse conditions. The planet was also noted for Orryxian Catsblood, a popular beverage.

Parwa was a world that was located in the Seswenna sector, in the Outer Rim Territories. The Parwan bounty hunter Derrown originated on Parwa.

Hockaleg was a planet in the Patriim system. The Tarkin superweapon was built in orbit of Hockaleg, with the construction crew living in a spaceport town on the world in between work shifts. Citizens of this world worshiped the deity, Holy Jaf.

Phelarion was a planet located in the Seswenna sector, in the Outer Rim Territories. In was the homeworld of the wealthy Motti family, which included figures prominent in the Galactic Empire such as Lady Thalassa Tarkin, wife of Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin, and Conan Antonio Motti, Admiral of the Imperial Navy. The Motti family were wealthy citizens in the megonite moss mining business, established in the centuries prior to 60 BBY, using slave labor. Lady Tarkin erected a solid black obelisk on Phelarion in tribute to Tarkin and named the main starport Port Tarkin. She ran the mining operations for the Empire, but they were sabotaged by Leia Organa, who crashed on the planet after her ship was shot down by a TIE fighter.

Spuma was a medium sized planet in the Seswenna sector of the Outer Rim. It had a number of prairies, mountains, and jungles located along its surface.

Uvena Prime or Uvena I, was the home planet of the Shistavanens (wolfmen) in the Uvena system. The species, capable of hyperspace-level technology, emigrated to other uninhabited worlds of the system, including Uvena III, to prevent strangers from outlying systems from arriving and settling them. Nearby was  Uvena II and the Shistavanen colony world Uvena III.

The Moshaw Dark Star was a black hole on the edge of the Seswenna sector. The Dark Star Hellions originated from the area around this black hole. The Dark Star Hellions was the name of a swoop gang in the Seswenna sector of the Outer Rim Territories. They ran spice, smuggled weapons, and served as muscle for various underworld factions.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 12, 2014, 11:23:48 AM
I think this sector works for our purposes.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 12, 2014, 11:37:52 AM
I agree. I think for The Lost Campaigns, starting out in a familiar setting with natural Imperial vs. Rebel tendencies is the way to go. That way we can refine the game mechanics for the next Campaign, and move to another part of the galaxy that could be considered more remote or backwater.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 12, 2014, 01:04:18 PM
I agree 100%. Having a sector we know and then branching  out is the way to go.

Now that we are all on the same page the next step is to get together some rules/ideas of who is who.

I am going to be the Sector Fleet Admiral/troubles-shooter from an ImpNav fleet.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 12, 2014, 02:18:16 PM

     A whole sector itself might be too ambitious still.  Just saying.  You're talking 4 players at the moment, 2 of which have expressed interest in relative static planetary locations.  That's a lot of void for 2 players alone to fill, especially when the other 2 players activities are going to be drawing you there presumably?  How much are other worlds going to play in any actual management & build up dynamic or will there be absolutely none of that?  You could take just Eriadu and Sullust and develop as the Battleground Stages possibly that are primarily what Empire or Rebs may use as harvest points of some sort?   and keep with idea of the whole sector, as Hop says, as story may possibly take you places and some small features for action on a couple that are used for characters or people with backwater interest (my story will be almost exclusively on Eriadu I anticipate tho)

     We need to try and adequately address what we all want to see, find the absolute middle ground, as there are only the few of us and otherwise those who aren't satiated are going to drift and lose interest or feel as though we are bending to play the style of game others want to play.  I like the idea of intending to do future campaigns, but if this first one isn't held together with enough carrots on sticks to keep us all enthralled then we can forget about a second one.  At least that's my theory.


     But anyway, to try and stay somewhat on a progressing note,  I'm cool with idea of Eriadu as it entirely fits a mold for a story I'd like to do and angle that'd be fun to play with the strategy battle/rpg system we come up with.  So there's a good common ground point there.
     
     I will be taking role of Eraidu Opposition, character angles may be numerous, I expect primary to be some sort of iconic mid level commander though.  It will begin as political wranglings, discontent and isolated acts of violent dissent against Imperial domain.  As a crackdown intensifies, it will escalate per real world parallels and it will blossom in to all out Civil War amidst Eriduans to depose Imperial rule and Galactic Civil War between Imps and Rebs.  In this role, I will very unlikely ever be writing about anything going on outside of Eraidu, besides perhaps very minorly Sullust if it is to function as the Rebel Bastion of sorts in the region.   Think Syria conflict almost then roll in impending Iraq 2.5 and all to that.  I'm going to try and make it have feel of those parallels sort of, vaguely I guess.

   
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 12, 2014, 03:43:38 PM
Eriadu seems like a real high profile planet...
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 12, 2014, 03:45:53 PM
So the real question is how do we make usable and fair rules?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 12, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
Eriadu seems like a real high profile planet...

    Yes but that helps the cause of at least being a Battleground location.  Reb and Empire aren't going to fight to last man standing over worthless scrap of land like Hoth or some undeveloped rural world in the context of the drawn out ground battle that I'd been considering that lasts for months and months or years and years in IC context and has substantial population to matter enough in public eye and opinion of galaxy etc.

    I would naturally gravitate toward more backwater locales as well, but I don't feel that fits the story I'm finding myself want to do as my interest takes more solid shape here.  I'd also personally rather see it as a completely Us-Invented world, but others are more keen to stick to some brand of canon.  I'd be content just to exist in SW Uni and tech and lore and galactic background and compeltely invent our settings, but I've been pushing that concept for years and years and preaching the tactic of shrinking down our game as much as possible and no one ever (or at least not enough or whatever) wants to bite on it and give it a try.

    So I'm just trying to grasp at the straws here that are are close as possible to what I'd like to do and try and not pull it to far away from what everyone else wants to do.  Eriadu compeltely fits the idea I'd like to do, but I'm open to other suggestions as well.  But for the type of conflict and story evolution my angle will come from, it needs to be relatively populated with lots of city scape and value.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 12, 2014, 04:24:34 PM
Don't have a problem with an original planet. Hell call it Earth lol. But I do know I don't like small scale lol.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 12, 2014, 04:58:30 PM
Fair enough I'm sold on Eriadu. Time to do a little research.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 12, 2014, 05:17:51 PM
Fair enough I'm sold on Eriadu. Time to do a little research.

BOOM
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 12, 2014, 08:12:03 PM
Stray thought as I'm heading out the door - somewhat standard (traditional) rules with very minimal dice rolling (if any) as one stage of battle, but also having a 'micro battle' within the larger battle that holds some sway using more dice sort of like the example Eidolon gave for miniatures - somehow weighting the two results and then going from there?

Because the problem we are trying to solve is the linear nature here - bring as many guns and ships as you can and let them go at it. There's no surprises and retreats are rare or impossible, it's not a big surprise and it gets old fast. So what if we found a way to sort of 'distill' combat into something representative of the whole? Like in a large engagement, focusing on one smaller engagement.. i don't know, this are stray thoughts! Just throwing them out there, maybe they will fire something in someone's mind that's more useful.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 12, 2014, 09:33:32 PM
   Gravy train. So Eriadu?   Wookies article on it isn't the greatest.  So typed directlyed from the SW Atlas on my lap. . .


   Eriadu

   Grid Location: M-18

   Terrain: Industrial cityscape, waste zones

   Diameter: 13,490km

   Length of Year: 360 local days

   Population: 22 billion

   Sentient Species: Humans, various other alien species.

   Species Mix: Humans 86%, other 14%

   Language: Basic

   Government: Imperial Governship

   Major Exports: Computer technology, manufacturing, textiles, droids

   Major Imports: Foodstuffs, Medicinals, lommite ore (and illicit weapons for the Eriaduan Opposition!)

   System/Star: Eriadu/Eriadu

   Planets     Type              Moons
   Muntiadu  Molten Rock      0
   Jaroona    Volcanic Rock    0
   Erinar       Volcanic Rock    1
   Eriadu      Terrestrial         1
   Tarastra   Gas giant          7
   Kelliadu    Ice ball              0

   Eriadu, it's said, is a Core World in all things except geography.  But while the planet is inarguably in the Outer Rim, it sits squarely at the most prestigious, economically vital, and strategic spot in the entire region: the intersection of the Hydian Way and the Rimma Trade Route (not to mention two lesser but still important routes, the Lipsec Run and the Yankirk Route).

   Eriadu is a badly polluted factory world of rugged landmasses and shallow seas.  For years it was known more for it's delicate shellwork jewelry than for it's economic might-- but that all changed under the guidance of the Quintad, five powerful, ambitious Corulag families who emigrated to Eriadu around 900BBY.  The Quintad-- the most famous branch of which is the Tarkin clan-- remade Eriadu into a manufacturing giant with prestigious shipyards, seeking to turn their world into "the Coruscant of the Outer Rim."  They largely succeeded: Few mention Eriaduan shellwork anymore. (And just as well-- the Eriaduan flow-mollusks are extinct, the victims of inceased ocean acidity that dissolved their shells.)

   Eriadu was a flashpoint during the Clone Wars.  A Republic bastion amid Separatist sectors, it served as the headquarters for the Greater Sesweena Sector's Army, overseen by Wilhuff Tarkin.  After Palpatine's ascension to Emperor, the Greater Sesweena was reorganized into Oversector Outer, making Tarkin the most powerful man in the Outer Rim.

   Rabidly pro-Imperial.  Eriadu would eventually become a grudging member of the New Republic as economic considerations out-weighed political leanings.  It was bypassed by the Yuuhzan Vong and emerged from the conflict with its importance and power greatly enhanced.

   Many Eriaduans are extremely touchy about their place in the galaxy.  Their accents are "more Core than Core," and they even regard the most innocent remarks about the Rim as potential insults.


END SW ATLAS ENTRY


   The Wookiepedia entry is relatively in line with this for most part though brief.  It notes some Islamic like cultural attributes of traditional men and women wearing beards and veils respectively.  Obviously 22billion people don't all behave and think the same, so there's room for all sorts of personal interpretation as well.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 12, 2014, 09:35:23 PM
Stray thought as I'm heading out the door - somewhat standard (traditional) rules with very minimal dice rolling (if any) as one stage of battle, but also having a 'micro battle' within the larger battle that holds some sway using more dice sort of like the example Eidolon gave for miniatures - somehow weighting the two results and then going from there?

Because the problem we are trying to solve is the linear nature here - bring as many guns and ships as you can and let them go at it. There's no surprises and retreats are rare or impossible, it's not a big surprise and it gets old fast. So what if we found a way to sort of 'distill' combat into something representative of the whole? Like in a large engagement, focusing on one smaller engagement.. i don't know, this are stray thoughts! Just throwing them out there, maybe they will fire something in someone's mind that's more useful.

Could be a cool idea, almost like, Hero Units or Groups being the fighting that determines where the whole thing goes?  The larger engagement occurs, and we have some value to all the other components of it, but in terms of micro-managed battles, it's smaller or at least more dynamic and intricate for what's happening around our actual main characters?  Hope im expressing this appropriately. The larger battle is more checkers, the smaller battle is more chess in the aspect of technicals.  This then makes managing fleets much easier for Hale and Gal I'd think, maybe your command ships and a small support contigent fight a more detailed battle, while your other heavy ships and picket lines are fighting a more simplistic battle in the background, that could even be affected by what's happening between yours guys "Character Duel" battle. .

 That's one potential way to classify it.  Intricate battles are Character Duels, which could be against another player or the GM.  We try and give it more of an RPG treatment in some ways? Maybe there's some leveling system then to Character pursuits?  This could be the reward system per say, along with however you'd build up or improve your larger fleets or command ships.   We could slightly isolate scales of ships, so that say if a Fringer character is getting in on a Character Duel between Hale and Gal, he's never in a position to get totally destroyed really, he's more so zipping about the fighters, plucking some out, trying to accomplish whatever his story goal may be?  just more so booted out the battle and having some penalty?  Maybe he's got to run some routes or something.   Just a vague concept.  The smaller battle is in depth, the larger is more composite?

  Brainstorming for awhile.  If you don't hear from me the ole noggin finally broke down ;p

  Oh and I'll be out of town tomorrow, should be back in the discussion Sunday evening.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 12, 2014, 11:58:01 PM
  If all is in general agreed from the Eriadu/Sesweena point on then, I'm set on my desire role I think. 

  My main character is going to be Major Peerless Safa'vid.  Concept that hopefully will work out is he commands the loyalty of a company or battalion of a particular Eriaduan cultural sect that happens to be highly traditional to ancient Eriaduan customs.  From there it could grow to something directly much larger or at least playing a role in it. The Safa'vids I think will be one of the major ancient families of Eriadu that still survive that pre-date the Quintad, thus pre-dating the mass industrializtion of Eriadu.

  I will need some way to exist amongst the mass Imperial majority might of Eriadu and Oversector Outer HQ.  A way to exist and work with the Rebellion!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 13, 2014, 02:28:08 AM
I know you guys are really deadset on a planetside type of game, but I must stress this ought to be a game and not a group SL. If you came up with some way to represent an entire planet on a grid or in some other capacity, I'm sure the idea of cities constantly shifting hands until perhaps some sort of condition is triggered that forces a large scale space-to-ground battle for complete control of the planet.

As I've said before, a win condition metric we can use is Influence, just something to think about.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 13, 2014, 09:17:52 AM
I agree with Hale.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 13, 2014, 02:25:05 PM
Here is a Sector Map I made, we can use it or not.
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/SeswennaSector_zps846cd77e.png)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on September 13, 2014, 06:18:22 PM
So how are the rules going to look like? :P
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on September 13, 2014, 07:54:33 PM
There is another option here for your dice rolling. I could be your GM. I dont particularly want to play but I could run in a GM capacity to do dice rolls and solve rule disputes thus freeing up some of the workload for everyone else and allowing you all to focus completely on combat... up to you.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 13, 2014, 10:53:46 PM
How I Think We Should Go About Writing Rules...

1. Now that we've established a setting, and character archetypes to play (2 planetside players + 2 sector-level players) we make it a Team Game. Maybe some more people will join, sure, but we keep it Galactic Empire vs Rebel Alliance for simplicity sake (a 3rd party sim also didn't realistically exist, nor is it true to the spirit of GCW).

2. We continue to drill down on mapping the gameboard. We need to come up with generic planetary grid maps for our sector (3 should do). I recommend using a Mercator Projection, with 8 different grid sections. We can drill down even further by assigning up to 3 Cities to a single planet, and the cities could be Capital, Major, and Minor. These cities will have unique grids associated with them, so that battles aren't cookie cutter. Obviously a Capital will have major development, highly urban, whereas the Minor city will be less developed, more open. The goal of the game should be a simple Capture The Flag (take over the Capital) or King of the Hill (take over the Major + Minor).

3. A single, space grid for all systems would seem appropriate. I like the idea of a Hexagonal Space Grid, with lots of moving pieces but the overall action is simple (NEB moves to B-1, fires at ISD for 300 DMG... type stuff).

4. Bring in Character Attributes that influence game mechanics. Sort of how we already have with our current Hero System in GCW, only this time we can utilize some dice perhaps.

I think those four areas are a good starting place. Specs have, and always will be, quick and easy -- once we know how they'll be utilized.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on September 14, 2014, 10:44:44 AM
Map looks good, except that Eriadu is off of the actual intersection of the major routes there? Uvena is 1 system, but if you mean to represent a diff of travel markers for HS regulations then makes sense- tho would no other systems/worlds then any of their additional worlds represented?  We have full canon info on Eriadu system and chances are these other Sesweena systems have noted settlements or cause to visit other worlds in the system.

I can get on board with most of the points in essence.  However I think maybe Eriadu itself should get some special treatment in terms of its scale compared to the other worlds.  Generic maps for other worlds, less goals than, expand Eriadus.  Could have 3 classes of systems, theres Eriadu, theres MiddleRoad and theres Backwater/LittleValue.  Then even difficulties of certain things change. If die were used for smuggling in somemechanic, its harder on Eriadu than a backwater world.

 The team aspect sounds cool.

 Remember in GCWIII how it was mentioned that you'd have main char units and then ancillary char units?  We should incorporate that.  Like for instance, as a ground battle commander, i could have some sort of little bonus units that support bulk of my inevitable force.  (i'm game for doing all reb ground as it gets worked up that is).  Maybe it is an artillery specialist with longest range damage abil or something, or maybe it's a smuggler that helpls increase some attribute after performing smuggling action, etc.  I guess basically sort of porting a lot of the concept that was going along for the entire galactic scope in GCWIII but just implement concepts of it in context of Sesweena and giving RPGish role. Reb v Imp GCW focus sector scale, battle game character driven thing.

 It sort of guides the hand of player to form character groups, yet keeps everything definitely game aspect as well.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 14, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
I actually liked where we were going in terms of Rules & Specs for GCWIII, so I'm all for incorporating existing ideas regarding Hero Units, Auxiliary Characters, Elite Squads, etc.

Agree that Eriadu should be given special treatment in terms of game maps. In terms of what systems made it on the map, that's straight from Wookiepedia.

REVISED SECTOR MAP
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/Seswenna_zps210f16da.png)

Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Dementat on September 15, 2014, 02:25:11 PM
Hmm... seems I have much reading and catching up to do...

 ;)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 15, 2014, 03:28:10 PM
And in a dark corner of the earth a rumble occurs. We are getting a decent amount of the old gang together.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 16, 2014, 08:40:48 PM
Testing some specs/ideas.

TIE Fighter
Type: TIE SF
Length: 6 meters
Hyperdrive: None
UCR: 8
Durability: 6
Attack Rating: 4
Capabilities:
TIE SWARM -- Groups of this unit, when forming up with other TIE SFs, get +3 AR for every 6 TIEs in the group.

X-Wing
Type: Heavy SF
Length: 13 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 6
Durability: 20
Attack Rating: 10

Test Battle: 1 TIE Fighter Squad vs 1 X-Wing Squad

TIE Fighters (12/12)
UCR: 8
Durability: 72/6
Attack Rating: 54 (48+6)

X-Wings (12/12)
UCR: 6
Durability: 240/20
Attack Rating: 120

12 TIE Fighters attack 12 X-Wings for 54 DMG.
(54/20) = 2 X-Wings destroyed, 1 damaged.

12 X-Wings return fire for (120x6/8) 90 DMG.
(90/6) = 12 TIEs destroyed. 2 X-Wings blow up.

12 TIE Fighters make final attack for 54 DMG. 3 X-Wings destroyed.

FINAL RESULTS: 7/12 X-Wings remain.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 17, 2014, 11:37:49 AM
I like the way that looks. Would be simple to make a Spread Sheet to do all these(Something I can do).
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 17, 2014, 02:17:36 PM
Yeah, the idea is that we go back to individual SF/AUX units. There are some benefits to this:

1. It will help combat math in small scale battles (VSD vs NEB + CORV, for instance).
2. It makes SF/AUX less disposable -- since damage isn't spread amongst a squadron, casualties are noticed immediately.
3. We could, in theory, allow for modifications and upgrades to be performed on individual fighters/AUX so that something like Red 5 (Luke's X-Wing) would have a tangible in-game effect, for example:

Normal X-Wing, UCR: 6 / DUR: 20 / AR: 10
Enhanced X-Wing, UCR: 7 / DUR: 24 / AR: 12
Elite (Rogue Squadron) X-Wing, UCR: 8 / DUR: 30 / AR: 16
Red-5 would be an Elite X-Wing + R2-D2 + Luke's piloting skills, so for game purposes, let's say R2-D2 adds some crazy bonuses like UCR+1, +10 DUR and +4 AR, and Luke's Force-enhanced Piloting skills add more craziness like +6 UCR and +6 AR

In the end, Luke + R2-D2 + Elite X-Wing = UCR: 15 / DUR: 40 / AR: 26 ... basically one helluva starfighter. Not invincible, but definitely could take a licking and retreat if necessary. So let's put that theory to the test,

(12/12) TIE Fighters attack Red 5 for (54x8/15) = 29 DMG
Red-5 returns fire, dealing 26 DMG and destroys 4 TIEs, then makes a hyper-escape.

Obviously we'll need some amplifying rules for SF vs SF, because 12 vs 1 isn't realistic. I believe TIEs grouped together in packs of 4, as to maximize attack vectors whilst leaving room for maneuvering.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on September 19, 2014, 12:03:48 PM
I think that makes a lot of sense if you ask me.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on September 21, 2014, 12:23:33 AM
More thoughts about specs: we keep it really simple.

EMPIRE
Capital Ships: ISD, VSD, STRK, CRAK, LANCER
Starfighters: TIE/F, TIE/B, TIE/INT, TIE/A, XG-1
Auxiliary: L/SHU, S/TRAN, SKIP
Vehicles: AT-AT, AT-ST, Speeder Bike
Infantry: Fleet Trooper, Stormtrooper, ARC Trooper

REBEL
Capital Ships: MC-80, RAF, NEB, CORV, GR-75
Starfighters: A-Wing, B-Wing, X-Wing, Y-Wing, Z-95
Auxiliary: L/SHU, A/TRAN, RAT
Vehicles: T-47, Hover Tank, Speeder Bike
Infantry: Rebel Trooper, Rebel Commando, Rebel Ranger

SF/AUX/GAV Upgrades: Enhanced, Elite
Infantry Upgrades: Veteran, Elite

Now, keep in mind, this is just the spec list for all basic units. The intention is to have a Hero Unit (the Player Character) + Companion Units (less capable but still awesome) + Special Units (really beefy special purpose units, most likely for combat).

If we keep the spec list relatively small, and focus more on modifiers rather than creating new units altogether, this could make the game a bit more interesting.

As for the SF specs, here's what I have so far:

A-Wing
Type: Light SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 10 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 10
Durability: 15
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: 6 CMs (+2 AR)
Capabilities:
Slash Maneuver --- This unit may launch all warheads in a single attack against capital ships.

B-Wing
Type: Heavy SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 17 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 3
Durability: 34
Attack Rating: 8
Warheads: 10 APTs (+4 AR)
Capabilities:
Gunship --- +2 UCR against capital ships and auxiliary craft.

X-Wing
Type: Heavy SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 13 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 6
Durability: 26
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: 6 PTs (+3 AR)
Capabilities:
Hit and Fade -- After making any attack, this unit can make an immediate hyperescape to avoid return fire.

Y-Wing
Type: Heavy SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 16 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 4
Durability: 32
Attack Rating: 6
Warheads: 6 PTs (+3 AR) OR 4 PBs (+6 AR vs Caps)
Capabilities:
Bombing Run --- This unit may launch all warheads in a single attack against capital ships.

Z-95 Headhunter
Type: Light SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 12 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 6
Durability: 18
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: 6 CMs (+2 AR)
Capabilities:
Escort Fighter --- While on Combat Space Patrol or in the Atmosphere, this unit gets +2 UCR.

----------------

TIE Fighter
Type: TIE SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 6 meters
Hyperdrive: None
UCR: 8
Durability: 8
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: None
Capabilities:
Short Range Fighter --- While on Combat Space Patrol, this unit gets +2 UCR.

TIE Interceptor
Type: TIE SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 10 meters
Hyperdrive: None
UCR: 10
Durability: 12
Attack Rating: 8
Warheads: None
Capabilities:
Tactical Fighter --- This unit gets +1 AR for each point of UCR above its target (example: vs. X-Wing would be +4 AR).

TIE Bomber
Type: TIE SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 8 meters
Hyperdrive: None
UCR: 6
Durability: 10
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: 6 PTs (+3 AR) OR 4 PBs (+6 AR vs Caps)
Capabilities:
Bombing Run --- This unit may launch all warheads in a single attack against capital ships.

TIE Avenger
Type: Advanced TIE SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 10 meters
Hyperdrive: None
UCR: 8
Durability: 20
Attack Rating: 8
Warheads: 6 CMs (+2 AR)
Capabilities:
Tactical Fighter --- This unit gets +1 AR for each point of UCR above its target (example: vs. X-Wing would be +2 AR).

XG-1 Assault Gunboat
Type: Heavy SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 15 meters
Hyperdrive: None
UCR: 5
Durability: 30
Attack Rating: 6
Warheads: 10 CMs (+2 AR)
Capabilities:
Strike Fighter --- This unit can launch all warheads in a single attack.

Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Medivh on September 24, 2014, 01:02:57 PM
I think something to consider is trying to avoid both a "chess match" and on the opposite extreme, a situation where the outcome is known from the outset, because one side is stronger than the other.  Each side needs to have different strengths and weaknesses that CAN be exploited, but may not be.

My best analogy is comparing Warcraft (I and II) and Starcraft.

Warcraft literally had both sides with matching units.  Scenarios were made harder only by reducing your resources/units as compared to the enemy.

Starcraft however, had those different strengths and weaknesses.  The zerg had weaker units that were cheaper, and could heal; the protoss units were more expensive, but stronger, and had shielding; humans soldiers were weak, but machines were strong. The particular units also did not parallel each other - some has strong A to A, some had strong S to A, and some had strong A to S.  There were ways to deal with weaknesses, but they had to be dealt with, or you were left vulnerable.

That's something that can be programmed into a computer game.  How can varying weaknesses/strengths really be played out in text based action?

Rebels have advantage of speed (in cap ships) over the Empire
Empire usually has advantage of strength and/or numbers over rebels

Rebel fighters have shields/ TIES don't - but when we've ever played it out in battle, it just makes the fighters stronger.  The shields don't regenerate. It might as well be stronger hulls, UNLESS the shielding actually protects fighters - maybe shields regenerate between posts?  That makes rebel fighters much more valuable against imperial attack - they don't keep damage to shielding.  But they are more expensive, limiting their effectiveness against an Empire that can churn out TIES that admittedly can be killed very quickly.

Fighters also have limited capacity to carry warheads - they may have 2 launchers, and carry only 1-2 torpedoes per launcher.  In SW Episode IV, Red Leader had two proton torpedoes in his arsenal - that's why he couldn't make a second run on the death star.

Just thoughts running through my head.  Trying to think of more ways to make it less of "my numbers vs your numbers"
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on September 28, 2014, 11:57:03 PM
Well, honestly it comes down to what are you looking for in its design. Are you guys looking for a game, and it to be just that? In that situation, in order to maintain the balance that Med is talking about you simply limit the Empire to T/F, T/B, and T/Is for fighters. The issue comes in because the imperial players get tired of having to replace their entire fighter compliments after every battle and eventually every imperial sim ive ever seen, no matter how limited always works to end the rebel fighter superiority, which in turn unbalances the game. Canon specs or not, if at any point the imps can compete with the rebs with fighters, your game is broken. Remember, while yes rebel fighters are utterly dominant, what no one takes into account is once the fighters are gone, even an entire rebel fleet is worthless. If the imps loose their fighters, they can just move the capships in to make up the difference.

Now if you are looking to be more realism orientated, well then someone is going to take the shaft. The Empire simply out classed the rebels in every way. In reality the rebels should have been utterly exterminated by the Empire and it shouldnt even have been a resistance. We far too often dont take into account with these games that these are fictional movies and not really based on any sort of reality. Therefore rebels, in hopeless situations somehow just continue to win. In these games, that is just simply not the case, they dont operate by a script and when one side completely out-powers the other side, you are going to lose every time, every battle. So basically the person that plays the rebels can never engage in a front on battle, and any time the imperial side does, the rebels will be forced to retreat. After 6 months, depending on how fast you guys play, the rebels will be left with nothing but the poorest of planets, no economy, and no hope of even a minor victory... as it was in the movies. Basically in order to have realism, someone has to be ok with playing the losing side from the start. This style would be more if you want to focus on storylining over combat. That way battles are less important then whats going on with everyones story and as such, its not so important for the rebels to win major battles.

Just a few things to keep in mind when you guys are going through your design process.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: gallpizi on October 05, 2014, 05:47:58 PM
So where are we at/ what can I do?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on December 23, 2014, 11:55:53 PM
So I was sitting here and had a thought. Yes I know, scary! But what would people think about a combat sim based around ship templates instead of just set stat lists? Like turbolasers take up X space, shield generators take up X space and each ship gets X total space to play with. Obviously there would be more too it then that but thats the basics of the idea. Sure its the same old numbers run we've all done a hundred times before but this time it has personality to it. It would still look like star wars, and everything would operate off the same basic scale but we could really let our creative juices fly. I dont know, like I said it was just a thought, wondering what you guys think about it?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on January 31, 2015, 09:51:42 PM
I'm skeptical of a "custom starship" combat model because if we get to the point of your ship versus mine, the ship with the most guns wins.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on February 01, 2015, 08:17:00 AM
Until your tank comes up against my ship that has twice your shields and 3x your speed, in which case I simply out maneuver you until I wear you down. Im mean, obviously at some level yes, its going to come to what you are talking about, but really is reality any different? In war, the army with the most and biggest guns wins. Sure tactics come into play a little, but do tactics really matter when you are running from "effect fire" coming from 5 or 6 different artillery divisions? Just saying, there is no way to really get around the fact that war has always been a numbers game. This emphasizes the effect a bit more then desired sure, but there really is no way around that in any combat sim. You also have to keep in mind that any system we design to try to balance that out ends up adding extra layers of complexity to the system, which the idea behind this is all the complexity is in the design model, the game it self I was planning on an ultra-simplified sim model. Basically weapons do X damage, you have this much shields, go. Yes im sure there would be small imbalances in it, but I figure you treat it like Empire at War, you just play into them and deal with it. Obviously if something was completely game breaking we would address it, but for the most part, if you figure out how to pack 25 HTLBs onto a corellian corevette (which would never happen, its a hypothetical for effect) then that would be our problem to figure out how to deal with, as would happen in real life, such as Russia trying to figure out how to deal with the fact our military is now starting to use laser based weaponry.

It was just an idea honestly. I havnt even worked anything up for it as I wanted to see what the enthusiasm for such a project would be, which after 40 something days you are the first person to respond so... lol

Edit: Also an easy idea to deal with what you are talking about is to just use the economy to limit how powerful you can make stuff. If your weapons platform costs a million credits cause of all the guns, and you only make 150,000 credits per pay period, then you probably arnt going to have many of them, and the loss of even 1 would be catastrophic.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 02, 2015, 07:28:11 PM
Okay, so the idea is to build a bridge RPG-style gameplay with GCW-style mechanics.

The only way to accomplish this is be both turn-based and scenario-driven. One example scenario I think can highlight something we need is the Millennium Falcon escaping Mos Eisley. This entailed a (short) ground combat sequence (Han vs Troopers), followed by a space combat sequence (ISD vs Falcon). All of this happened in the span of a few minutes on screen!

We need grids, grids, and more grids, in order to accomplish this sort of gameplay.

Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 02, 2015, 08:23:49 PM
I'm skeptical of a "custom starship" combat model because if we get to the point of your ship versus mine, the ship with the most guns wins.

not with dice  :D
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 02, 2015, 10:16:02 PM
The only way to accomplish this is be both turn-based and scenario-driven. One example scenario I think can highlight something we need is the Millennium Falcon escaping Mos Eisley. This entailed a (short) ground combat sequence (Han vs Troopers), followed by a space combat sequence (ISD vs Falcon). All of this happened in the span of a few minutes on screen!

We need grids, grids, and more grids, in order to accomplish this sort of gameplay.

I'm a fan of scenario driven.  A thought on turn based, if we are talking combat instances here straddling rpg/rpg tactics where multiple units may come in to play, perhaps a system where one "teams" particular constituents don't all act at once.  So it's a cycle of back and forth between two opposing forces, even if it's only two players, until all "units/characters" exhaust ability for a round?

I cannot stress the how much this flourishes in X-Wing minis and any similar tabletop game, bringing all sorts of possible modifiers (and simple ones to!) in to play.


As for grid demand, then I'd think we need to look at possibility of some form of uniform grid easily applied across all scales/scenes so as we move from one to another it's not as much of a jump.  Hexagons are a personal fav.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 02, 2015, 10:24:07 PM

Separate note/probing, what's with your personal aversion to Die Hale?  Burned on the craps table once too often?  :D

But seriously.  There is no parallel for adding chance to outcome in a game of the nature we all pursue.  I'm not saying we can't do a cool game without them as we always have before, I'm saying why aren't we now that we can?  If it's related to altering rolls, doesn't the page automatically flag that for us?  We simply deem any such post illegal and levy a penalty without any exception whatsoever.  We could keep die rolls in a sep thread from story posts perhaps to help that editing need conflict..

Even in the simplest context dude, if you want something to have a 50/50 chance of going one way, perhaps detection, or deciding order of battle or something, you make it a coin flip and roll a 2 sided die.  Just saying they have some great worth we should keep in mind going forward for some application.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 02, 2015, 10:55:21 PM
Ok I think I might be a bit confused here. What are we doing? Is this a table-top RPG style game like the character sheets Hale posted, or is this a combat sim, or... yeah im lost now.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 02, 2015, 11:09:12 PM
And while this may be a first in history, im inclined to agree with Eid. A dice system just sounds more interesting. Its a change from the normal run of things, and as Eid says, it adds that element of chance that just doesnt exist otherwise. It doesnt matter if you have a giant weapons platform with 300 cannons if after you roll, 75% of the shots miss. You could even add a critical hit system with that. Like with the X-Wing Mini's game, roll so high and the shot causes additional damage or effects. Again like Eid said, there is just so much we can do with a dice system, simple things that would add so much to the game.

However, and we know its going to come up at some point so we might as well hash it out now, if we plan to use a dice rolling system, we are going to need an on-forum dice roller with unmodifiable script. Lets face it, unless we are rolling in a chatroom with witnesses, can you really be sure when someone gets that 1 perfect roll in a crunch situation? Let me run a scenario through for you: Im in a situation where im basically at a single attack left to live. My ship is beat to hell, and the picture is beyond grim. So I make one last ditch attack and (yes im just making stuff up for dice but bare with me) I need a 10 or higher for my weapons to hit you, 19 or higher for crit. I roll and hit 19 20 20 20 19 19. (Yeah yeah, I know, but it is technically possible) All critical hits and when the critical multipliers are added in, now you die and by a miracle I am able to escape. Now knowing me for however many years now, without SEEING that roll with your own eyes, would you ever, in a million years believe I rolled it? Yeah, lets be realistic here, lol. So with that scenario in mind, how do we deal with that issue?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 03, 2015, 12:02:14 AM
(http://162.243.8.124/swsfonline.com/public_html/Themes/swsf/images/dice_warn.gif) This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 10d20 : 14, 14, 11, 6, 6, 19, 10, 6, 17, 11, total 114

Rolled 10d20 : 8, 18, 11, 10, 9, 13, 18, 17, 17, 4, total 125
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 03, 2015, 12:06:02 AM
The problem with using the dice rolling function, is that I can preview the dice roll results, and if I don't like them, I can delete the script, re-preview my post to clear the cache, and then re-roll the dice until I get the results I want.

I'm not burnt out on dice, it's just that they don't work when there isn't a witness.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 03, 2015, 08:33:23 AM
Well, depending on how much work a GM wanted to do, there is technically a way to fix that. Basically it would hugely slow the game down, but we could have it that during a combat post, the player makes a post then makes a time to get together with the GM in the chat to roll all the dice. That or perhaps is there a way to link the dice roller button to the post button? That way when you roll, it rolls and automatically sends the post, that way the post is up and there is no way to modify it then.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 04, 2015, 09:53:25 AM
Exactly. Too slow or too much work to create a work-around. We may not like a currency-based system, but sometimes that kind of linear game helps the game function in ways dice don't or cant.

For example, it would work like this (using specs already posted on this thread):

X-Wing
Type: Heavy SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 13 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 6
Durability: 26
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: 6 PTs (+3 AR)
Capabilities:
Hit and Fade -- After making any attack, this unit can make an immediate hyper-escape to avoid return fire.

We would give "Energy Points" to units. For those with long-term memory, we did this in Aburik. Let's say, everybody gets 100 points, but how you use them depends on what that unit can do. For example:

Basic Attack (50): Unit fires guns at target in range, deals damage according to attack rating.
Heavy Attack (70): Unit fires guns and warheads at target in range, deals damage according to attack rating.
Defensive Maneuver (40): +1 UCR this round when defending from an attack.
Offensive Maneuver (50): +1 UCR when attacking.
Special Capabilities (100): Perform any action listed under "capabilities" for a unit.

If we keep things really limited like this, that's my vision of what the game could be. Specs can always be tweaked. But, we keep everthing scenario based, use the Seswenna Sector Campaign that we have going on right now for our background story.

I also envision a hybrid game. We SL 70% of the time, and only bust out the grids and the units to decide outcomes of major conflicts. That way we can take the time to set up each scenario as its own thing, as opposed to using cookie-cutter grids and units like we've done before.

Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 04, 2015, 10:33:51 AM
Well, its not so much that im opposed to a points based system, its just one of those things where its the same old system with a new coat of paint. Just another 3rd grade math class with more storyline. I mean, if im alone in this line of thinking someone please tell me, but the whole appeal of this is that it could be something we've never had before. If this is going to be just another standard combat model, im not saying I wont help or play, but its really going to diminish my interest in it. Basically the difference in <Yeah, what do you guys need from me. I want to do this.> to <Well, if you need me to keep the game active, i'll play...>

That and I just dont think we should be so quick to want to abandon the dice system. There has to be an easy way to do this, we just arnt employing the proper brain energy to it. Lets explore this a bit before we just toss it to the wind. I mean, ultimately you guys do what you will. And maybe we find out that its just not going to work with dice no matter what, but I think having the dice will have more people wanting to check it out then we will on another simple combat sim.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 04, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
The trick is developing a game we can play on these boards. As I've mentioned before in other threads, the market is saturated with Star Wars gaming to the extent that any game we think of that can be played here... a better version exists in real life. So yes, dice work. No arguments about that.

Check out this website:

http://roll20.net/
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 04, 2015, 02:16:41 PM

The problem with using the dice rolling function, is that I can preview the dice roll results, and if I don't like them, I can delete the script, re-preview my post to clear the cache, and then re-roll the dice until I get the results I want.

     Not that the concern isn't legitimate but I for one am of the opinion that anyone who would cheat is only cheating themselves and would be willing to leave it at that.  If a person is going to cheat they will cheat whether dice script altering is possible or not, I think the concept goes beyond simply cheating and in to good sportsmanship.  I think it's safe to presume anyone who is going to partake  is partaking from a place of love of the community/story aspect of the game and not to simply win at any cost.

     I think the goals/agenda of the game could be structured as such to help get away from any carnal motivations for that as well.  If we are looking at something more Story/RPG/Character driven, then we aren't talking about large scale territory and resource conquest, we don't need to be bothered with constructions and stock piling and such, it all becomes part of a story mechanic.

    Some rolls, perhaps outside of combat when affecting characters ability to "level" or improve and such could possibly be handled by a GM as well.  Could also consider GM handling combat rolls, but I think that removes some level of hands on feel for players




    Another thought is a decoder system that is revealed only after each roll.  In this way, even if a player chooses to look at die face values with preview before posting, he won't know for sure what the values will translate in to until the GM decodes it with a decoding roll. Basically it'd go something like as follows. . .


1) establish 2-3 set legends/keys for decoding rolls. . .
 
1 = hit  2 = hit  3 = miss  4 = miss  5 = action  6 = action
1 = miss  2 = miss  3 = action  4 = action  5 = hit  6 = hit
1 = action  2 = action  3 = hit  4 = hit  5 = miss  6 = miss


2) a player is attacking something with something else. . .

player elects to attack with something that uses 3 attack dice, so his roll would look like this. .

Rolled 3d6 : 3, 2, 6, total 11


   but even if he sneaks a peek, who knows which of the 3 decoding legends will be applied.

3) after a player rolls, a GM makes a decoding roll immediately after that simply arbitrarily chooses which key to choose 1-3 . . .

Rolled 1d3 : 3, total 3
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 04, 2015, 02:18:36 PM
As I've mentioned before in other threads, the market is saturated with Star Wars gaming

  Our Class Action lawsuit against FFG is a separate thread.   ;)


  The Threaded Forum system is obsolete to table topping only in visuals and obsolete to IRL RPG groups in no way imo.

  But I mean we can skip talk of how the mechancis of the game will go until we decide what we want to game to be can't we?

  So what do we want it to be?


 
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 04, 2015, 02:29:43 PM
    Another thought is a decoder system that is revealed only after each roll.  In this way, even if a player chooses to look at die face values with preview before posting, he won't know for sure what the values will translate in to until the GM decodes it with a decoding roll. Basically it'd go something like as follows. . .


1) establish 2-3 set legends/keys for decoding rolls. . .
 
1 = hit  2 = hit  3 = miss  4 = miss  5 = action  6 = action
1 = miss  2 = miss  3 = action  4 = action  5 = hit  6 = hit
1 = action  2 = action  3 = hit  4 = hit  5 = miss  6 = miss


2) a player is attacking something with something else. . .

player elects to attack with something that uses 3 attack dice, so his roll would look like this. .

(http://162.243.8.124/swsfonline.com/public_html/Themes/swsf/images/dice_warn.gif) This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 3d6 : 3, 2, 6, total 11

   but even if he sneaks a peek, who knows which of the 3 decoding legends will be applied.

3) after a player rolls, a GM makes a decoding roll immediately after that simply arbitrarily chooses which key to choose 1-3 . . .

(http://162.243.8.124/swsfonline.com/public_html/Themes/swsf/images/dice_warn.gif) This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 1d3 : 3, total 3


   So the decoder roll picked Key #3.  Comparing to original attack roll, he got a hit a miss and an action. An average offensive roll.  The miss is just a miss, the hit is a hit, and the action could be used to do something.

   This is just filler talk, whatever the numbers trnalste to, hits, actions whatev to be figured later and plugged in.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 04, 2015, 05:08:24 PM
Actually, going along with Eid's idea, but simplifying it even more, is there a way to show hidden values on the dice roller until the post is sent? Like have it show up like a password in the post while making it. So say we rolled 3d6 it would say Ramano rolled 3 6-sided dice: *, *, *. Then have it to where those then turn into values once the post button is clicked. That literally cant be more then 1 line of code, lol.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 04, 2015, 06:57:29 PM
only prob with that Ram is Greg/Hop is our Admin Web-e Duder and he just had a baby, sure he will chime in eventually though on the possibility, but then someone could hurry and delete a post.  As I said all in all I am willing to trust whoever plays not to be a douche.  But I recognize the need overall to protect the integrity of any game with controls as well.



I agree with Ram in that the idea of "something new" dice brings us a desirable element as well.

But like I said, this all pertains to exactly "WHAT" it is we are doing.  Let us each state plainly some ideas.


I'd like to see a character driven rpg sim really.  If larger battles occur, I'd imagine the engagements we have to be more key moments or supporting aspects of that battle, in a way acting out scenes of the overall grand landscape which is skewed by the outcome of our 'dueling' of sorts I guess you could say?  At any rate, I'd hope for it to be something that is directed by character ambition and story than a resource conquest dynamic.  Even leveled character aspects allowing more, access as it were in story.  Of course we could all play out whatever angle we wanted, be it an Armada Admiral or a Saboteur or a Smuggler.  But the game of numerical improvements would revolve more around improving a character(s)/groups standing or ability than a faction building more warships and gaining more revenue.

Of course that all revolves around some mutually agreeable story concept where we begin with some form of balanced competitive nature.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 04, 2015, 09:41:13 PM
Well, I dont so much care what we do with the story aspect, I can play into anything. The hardest part about SLing is learning the subject matter. Once you know what we all know about star wars, the story just comes naturally. So I mean, do what you want with the story. Im more interested in the technical aspects.

Like one thing I would really like to see is no more of these static vehicles. I mean, of course we would have base stats for all the ships for PDF and major faction dealings, but as far as for us on the small localized scale, I think we should have templates instead of just base ships. In actual star wars, only the empire really had specific vessel designs. The rebellion for example, many of their capital ships were old luxury liners outfitted with extra shield generators and turbolasers. The first generation rebel assault frigates were old Hutt luxury transports fitted with as many weapon emplacements as they could squeeze onto them. The MC-80s were nothing more then a bunch of modules all fitted together, and could be changed around to fit a variety of purposes. Probably the best example there could ever be, the Millennium Falcon, was a heavily modified TY-2400 freighter. Originally those dont even come with guns. So I think it would be interesting to play off that concept with the game.

Another thing is we need to keep the game extremely limited in scale. Make it small enough so that people HAVE to interact with each other and not just "well, lets sit here and pray upon the thousands of unaligned planets until we build up huge fleets" and the game is basically nothing for months on end then there is 1 battle and both sides are crippled for the next 3-6 months again. Like pick a spot with 8 or 10 planets, I dont even care how its politically aligned, and lets just focus there. Like the rest of the universe doesnt even exist as far as we are concerned. Everything we do only takes place in this 1 little corner.

Also, to address the hurry up and delete option, we already have systems in place to handle that. We make all post locked by the moderator upon submission. Thus the only way it can be edited is with approval. That way if you have minor tweaks and typos to fix, someone has already looked at the post first so we know what the rolls were.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 04, 2015, 10:13:55 PM
, the Millennium Falcon, was a heavily modified TY-2400 freighter.

How dare you.

YT1300 ;)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 04, 2015, 10:28:31 PM
-hides in shame- Youre right... I got the 2 mixed up in my head, lol.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 09:14:09 AM
I think we need to return to GCW III: Rise of the Empire. Yes, it lost some steam. But we can set up that whole game as a contained campaign. For those of you who've played KOTOR (not SWTOR!), the idea that different systems could give the player different things is a great idea. The goal would be turning the Seswenna Sector into a sandbox. You want Item A, go to System B, etc.

Instead of just posting SLs for character development, SLs would be critical for quest-fulfillment. At the end of a quest, when SLs have run their course, we can use a combat system to decide major outcomes.

For example, lets say my character Gunnar is trying to break into an Imperial command center to steal some codes or whatever. I would SL a large portion of it, but lets say after Gunnar finishes the theft, some alarm gets tripped, and now he has to slice and dice his way out.

That kind of scenario is very table-top RPG-ish, so, the question is... do we want that kind of game? Or do we just want to write SLs? Or do we just want to turn GCW III into a small-scale traditional sim with fleet and resource management, SLs be damned, just so we can blow stuff up?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 10:13:20 AM
Well, for obvious reason GCW would be a problem for me. And besides the obvious that im not allowed there anymore, (like seriously I cant even access that section of the boards) I just dont like the rules. They are far too open to interpretation, with them meaning 1 thing to this person, something else to another person and it comes down to whoever kisses ass to the guy in charge better gets his way. I can play as a team, but im not going to kiss ass just to get ahead... probably half the problem with my actual life, lol. Not trying to start an argument about it, those are just my personal feelings toward GCW. Take them as you will.

As far as the game is concerned, we gotta have some sort of combat system but im not totally opposed to a more SL focused outing. Some kind of character building. Not just a static thing that goes off and does interconnected stuff. As far as what you are talking about, im not sure I understand the concept. Do you mean like a scenario where we are all on the same team, and we are just playing towards a common story-goal ending?

I mean, you guys know me, im all for the resource management and blowing stuff up, but I am just looking for more this go around. Something more then just doing math for resource gain. Something more to do then just sitting around waiting for the other guy to make his post. I want my stuff to feel like MY stuff, not just generic models for a one size fits all system. And by god we need something that adds an element of chance to the scope. To combat against that "whoever has the biggest ship wins" scenario you were already talking about.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 11:00:29 AM
Personally, I'd like a combination of Armada and X-Wing for space combat, with RPG elements for ground SLs & combat.

1. Let's say the Galactic Empire is building a Planet Defender Turbolaser at some system.
2. Rebel Command catches wind of this, decides to organize a strike task force to sabotage/destroy the PDTL. Space: supplies and shipment convoy for the PDTL can be hit, Ground: the actual construction site can be hit too.
3. We, as the player community (PC), will "play the part" of either Rebel Forces or Galactic Empire, or find some way for our characters to be involved in either side (i.e. an independent bounty hunter could work as a "private contractor" for GE security, etc.).

That kind of scenario is combat-driven, but there are some elements that we as the PC need to fill in the RPG/Story gaps such as: what system is the PDTL at? Why are they building it? Who's behind it? How will the construction or destruction of the PDTL impact the larger campaign? Particularly, if we use an Influence-based point system to keep track of the balance of power, then this scenario will impact the end goal of winning over a sector for instance.

Sorry you can't view the GCWIII boards. We decided to go with a prequel based game for Chapter 3 that is a Sandbox Honor Sim. "Rise of the Empire" is set in 9 BBY. The Rebel Alliance hasn't formally been made, but inklings of a greater insurgency are beginning to take shape.

Alternatively, there is also talk of a GCW: Lost Campaigns: Seswenna Sector game...

The idea is that we go back to a Yavin-era GCW game with simple specs, smaller scale, more complex combat (if you read the back history of this thread, you'll see).

By limiting it to the Seswenna Sector, we don't have to worry about macro-management and other things associated with traditional big-game simming. At most, an entire Imperial Sector Fleet will be at the disposal of the GE, but a common scenario would be more like a VSD vs NEB+CORV, to take a page out of Armada.

We go hardcore on hexgrid, with firing arcs and everything (000, 045, 135, 180, 225, 315). (On that note, I would prefer that ships have designated firings arcs, and all weapons can be slewed to those arcs, rather than weapons having their own arcs, just to simplify things). ISD would for instance be 000, 045, and 315 (basically everything in front of it), whereas smaller ships would be more expansive. This is just like X-Wing, so the mechanics would be easy to translate into our game.

Because scale is small, we can customize ships for special purposes (for instance, a VSD without CMs but more TLs/ions, like a mini-ISD; or a VSD converted into a VEC, etc.).

Those are my ideas.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 05, 2015, 11:22:32 AM
Personally, I'd like a combination of Armada and X-Wing for space combat, with RPG elements for ground SLs & combat.

1. Let's say the Galactic Empire is building a Planet Defender Turbolaser at some system.
2. Rebel Command catches wind of this, decides to organize a strike task force to sabotage/destroy the PDTL. Space: supplies and shipment convoy for the PDTL can be hit, Ground: the actual construction site can be hit too.
3. We, as the player community (PC), will "play the part" of either Rebel Forces or Galactic Empire, or find some way for our characters to be involved in either side (i.e. an independent bounty hunter could work as a "private contractor" for GE security, etc.).


  Generally speaking I like this rough concept.  More or less what I had in mind, an agreeable campaign scenario, and plug our individual characters in to it to play some role.  Once complete, we could simply pick a new Campaign to start.  Ideally, we would be using same character/character groups, and improving their attributes/abilities maybe inbetween Campaigns resulting from whatever they achieved in the campaign/battles/story itself.

  I'd like to see the campaigns more focused ideally, as in not encompassing a whole sector at once.  Again, micromanaging empires or even mini empires is not at all a sort of game I am interested in seeing personally.  So if we use the campaign concept, character improvement, we still have the lasting long term reward/improvement dynamic, and with limited campaigns that will change upon a climax, we will get to change venues and not be stuck in the same environment for eternity.

  As far as ships and such I like the small scale for abiltiy to customize ships as well.  This could partially replace the management system to give players something to be working toward besides character improvement, acquisition of a new ship/few ships and bettering them etc.

   A thought on the characters, story and influence point concepts.  Maybe we have Character Groups, I know I'd like to use groups that have numerical tactical usage rather than be restricted to one character.  So maybe we have groups.  We get so many points to start out to create a core character/support group.  Eventually earning more points could be used to expand or improve "entourage/team" or to improve ships, or standing, or maybe used to skew a story concept?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 11:44:46 AM
Well, I definitely think we need a system in place for modifying ship templates so we dont end up in a scenario like Eid and I had before where he designs a ship that I do the math on there there is just no way it could carry enough power for all the systems, but we dont have any set rules for it so... it becomes, again, an ass kissing-fest to the person in charge to get our way. Which if I recall, it ended up just degenerating into a personal attack on each others character to decide who was more "deserving" of getting their way, lol. Anyway, the point im making is, without a system in place to check everything, both sides will always be able to come up with a logical argument why they are right. We need things to prevent against that. I mean, we can all sit here and agree to be civil all day long, but at the end of the day when everyone is down in the mud and its YOUR fleet on the line, there are always those lines in the sand we just arnt willing to compromise on.

And please dont misunderstand my intentions here, cause im sure by now everyone is going "Oh, here goes Ramano on his doomsday, nervous nelly shit." but lets face it, we've all done this long enough now to know where this is going. These are issues that are going to get brought up sooner or later. Best we get the irritating shit that we all roll our eyes at now out of the way so its not interrupting the game while we are playing. And also why I press upon the importance of having systems in place to deal with this kind of stuff when it comes up. I dont know about you guys, but I would rather have 6 complex guidebooks set up that we never need to use, then have an issue come up and not have a guide on how to deal with it and then we end up fighting and screaming at each other and everyone ends up quitting.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 11:56:56 AM
We also need to set this up for only like 3 players. Make so more can play if they wish, but set up for us 3 cause again, lets face it, how many times have we seen a sim get set up, and there are 8 willing and eager souls at the start, but 3 months down the road we look and its back to just Me, Eid, and Hale are the only ones posting. So I say this one we set up for just us 3, then if more people play we can adjust accordingly and the more the marrier. Ive made D&D campaigns work with less but it has to be adjusted to do so.

But I like the idea we got going. Where no one is really the imperial or rebels, we all just run operatives for whoever trying to achieve objectives. This is a good concept, we should expand on this to more detail!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 12:03:11 PM
Sketching a grid. (Interpret the grid as column-biased. Read everything top to bottom).
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/HEXGRID2_zps4ucdxtpv.png)

I like the idea of Character Groups. Using a Warhammer style system, players could form teams using characters with certain levels/ratings. For example: a Han Solo + Chewbacca + Luke Skywalker + Rebel Commandos would cost beaucoup. So would the shuttle Tydirium. Utilizing a "Command Point" system, this could easily be accomplished. Players could have a decked out strike team, or focus on leader + numbers (i.e. Vader & endless stormtroopers).

In regards to sensibilities and people getting offended, that's a bridge we can cross when we get there. I'd rather have airtight rules that require no arbitration or GM judgment. When an X-Wing blows up a TIE Fighter, we don't bitch at each other, but when a prized NPC gets killed, how will we reconcile that?

In this game, we need to start humble. 1 Master Character + 1 personal vessel. What that looks like can be different for everybody, but suppose we also introduce a means to allow players to start with more resources. Do they configure their team to be a spec ops strike force? Or go heavy on space with additional starships and better weapons?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 12:31:17 PM
In regards to sensibilities and people getting offended, that's a bridge we can cross when we get there. I'd rather have airtight rules that require no arbitration or GM judgment. When an X-Wing blows up a TIE Fighter, we don't bitch at each other, but when a prized NPC gets killed, how will we reconcile that?

My point exactly. Take the example between Syren and I. I put her character into a position where, there really is no realistic way you are getting out of that. So then a 2 week OOC fight ensues to which in order to save her character they just kick me out of the game. Which, perhaps I deserved it, I used Dem's girlfriend as a play to save my ship, which my character really could have never known about without OOC knowledge, but the point is, lets make it so that kind of issue is already prepared to be dealt with at the onset. Its combat, people are going to die. Best we make a time-out room for people can cool off after such an event, lmao!! Metaphorically speaking of course but you get my point. We take our RPing very seriously, and losing a character is tantamount to losing a limb. Youre damn right we are going to bitch and whine, haha!!

But as far as the influence system, I like that. Where the influence you control determines what you can use and how much. Like ships wont have a monetary cost per-say, but each class of vessel has an influence cost and build time, and you just build what you need at will, up to your influence maximum. That would also make it so we dont have to do record keeping on everyone for how much they are spending and people shaving credits. Look at what the person has, is it under their influence, then its good.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 12:57:01 PM
My preference is that a Master Character is immortal (unless the player agrees/decides for it to be killed). Everything else... is expendable. Everything and everyone. If we make the game campaign-based, then we could truly "play for keeps" by deliberately trying to destroy specific characters or ships. I mean, had the Falcon not slipped into a convenient asteroid belt, who's to say Death Squadron would've captured it for sure, and Leia would've been turned to the Dark Side? That being said, prior to the asteroid belt, the Falcon sure gave some Star Destroyers a run for their money (and had the hyperdrive been operational, would've escaped anyhow). Even if the Falcon had some escort vessels, Vader would've wanted to concentrate efforts to capture it regardless. The same thing would happen in our game. In chess you play for checkmate.



Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 02:46:58 PM
See, im not so sure I get down on that. I mean, its one thing to have your character pull off a miraculous escape, its completely another to have a system set up where your character, sitting on board the bridge of an exploding ship, with a single line post makes it to an escape pod, the pod flies through an entire opposing fleet, untouched, lightly sets down on the planet and you remain completely undetected, knowing exactly where you are, until a friendly ship, that somehow enters the area completely undetected picks you up and we are back to do it tomorrow. I mean, stop me if that doesnt sound like complete nonsense to you...

I mean, imagine the difference in play style when you know your character could die in any engagement. Retreat starts becoming viable options again. People dont engage head long against impossible odds simply because their economy can afford the losses. People would actually have to think in combat for a change, look at whats happening and constantly be planning for that worst case scenario. Death is a part of life, and its one area in our gaming we put to the side far too often in my opinion.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 05, 2015, 02:50:54 PM
My preference is that a Master Character is immortal (unless the player agrees/decides for it to be killed). Everything else... is expendable. Everything and everyone. If we make the game campaign-based, then we could truly "play for keeps" by deliberately trying to destroy specific characters or ships. I mean, had the Falcon not slipped into a convenient asteroid belt, who's to say Death Squadron would've captured it for sure, and Leia would've been turned to the Dark Side? That being said, prior to the asteroid belt, the Falcon sure gave some Star Destroyers a run for their money (and had the hyperdrive been operational, would've escaped anyhow). Even if the Falcon had some escort vessels, Vader would've wanted to concentrate efforts to capture it regardless. The same thing would happen in our game. In chess you play for checkmate.

   Good start we have going on settling on a premise.

   Agreed on a Master Character.  They should be designed in a unit aspect that leaves them a perpetual out.  An out that has some cost or loss, but an out for preservation none the less.  One thought. . .

   If characterse have groups, obviously a Master Char and his Compatriots/Confidants, then perhaps the in the "Escape" of a Master Char from a seeming ASSURED apprehension/killing, one of the lesser chars MUST be sacrificed.   Now if that's a Kill, or if it's a capture and they could maybe be recovered later as dif part of campaign/sub-mission etc, would be up to the Captor.

   Just a thought to help hard wire in story dynamic affecting actual combat/numeric systems.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 05, 2015, 02:57:21 PM
See, im not so sure I get down on that. I mean, its one thing to have your character pull off a miraculous escape, its completely another to have a system set up where your character, sitting on board the bridge of an exploding ship, with a single line post makes it to an escape pod, the pod flies through an entire opposing fleet, untouched, lightly sets down on the planet and you remain completely undetected, knowing exactly where you are, until a friendly ship, that somehow enters the area completely undetected picks you up and we are back to do it tomorrow. I mean, stop me if that doesnt sound like complete nonsense to you...

  I think perhaps you're just looking at it all through the lense of a normal sim in a way.  My thought is each scenario result within a campaign plays in to the next scenario to an extent.  Perhaps off.  But that's what I'm interpreting/thinking at moment.

  The idea of "Destruction" I think is maybe something we ought to not get hung up on when it comes to anything not NPCish in nature.  Otherwise, I think it should be built more towards Capture, Apprehension, Disabling etc etc etc.  Like if in space combat a ships health is reduced to 0, is it necessarily space dust now?  Or is 0 hull just more abstract meaning it is disabled, crippled etc.

  (I hate to use real world imagery to relate to fantasy space opera, but example being naval ships, seldom ever do they just explode.  They suffer critical failures and sink, often slowly over hours.  More may die from drowning or exposure than from trauma from damage inflicted on ship itself, etc)

   Hypothetically, if a Master Character were captured somehow, rather than a simple "escape/god power" of sorts, you could use that as the next "scenario" in the larger campaign.  So now you're not in space making an escape anymore, you're in a brig or being transported somewhere, and you have to get away from there.  Injecting the RPG element.  Basically like going from scene to scene.  Resolving one to find out what the next will even be.

   If I'm explaining ideas in my head well enough.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 03:00:42 PM
Playing on Eid's idea, I think that losing in general should come with consequences. Like if you engage in a goal and dont achieve it, you lose influence or something. Using the PDTL idea, say I have a rebel team going to try and destroy its construction. We fail and while I still make it out alive, I now suffer a permanent influence loss due to whatever. Perhaps that means the nice MC-60 you been rolling around in mutiny's or the rebellion decides im no longer a good investment and takes it back, thus I have to pick smaller ships for my fleet. Likewise achieving the objective would result in a gain to influence. Such a system would also allow us to engage in less engaged strikes against other players. Like instead of attacking each others fleets, we go after a building or a construction site to decrease their influence. Just an idea.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 03:06:43 PM
That's the idea. A Master Character could be captured, but never killed. This avoids the "miracle escape pod" scenario. Similarly, a "lucky escape" scenario is on the table if a sacrifice is made, like when that TIE Pilot tried to take a hit for Vader in the Death Star trench.  Likewise, a Master Character could use a miracle escape pod, but at the cost of leaving their ship behind (which could be salvaged/refurbished into a stock unit or gutted for special tech).

Think of the Han Solo carbon freeze. Lando made a deal to save Leia (even though Vader altered it later). The sacrifice of getting them out of Cloud City was Cloud City itself (leaving in the hands of the Empire).

Regarding the PDTL scenario, if the mission fails, the Empire gains influence. The cost would've been casualties on your team, but that's it. Loss of influence shouldn't always translate to loss of material or tangible attrition.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 05, 2015, 04:11:25 PM
    Awesome ideas and collective evolution of a thought so far guys.  I'm totally on board and stoked with this general direction.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 04:45:59 PM
Ok, but let me ask this then. Whats the point in capturing someone that I cant kill? Interrogation is pointless as you know I cant kill your character, I know I cant kill your character, so why would you divulge anything. You just make the storyline that you would die before giving up information, and then you either get your miracle escape or I let you go. I really cant impress enough upon how much I dislike that idea. With no danger to your character there is no growth.

Also, with no way to take an influence penalty we run the risk of people gaining so much influence that they can field front line imperial war fleets, complete with multiple ISDs. Far fetched idea I understand, but still possible. And with a pure influence system, losing units doesnt really mean a whole lot. I will just build/design more. There needs to be a penalty for mission failure to keep it interesting and keep the game fluid.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 05:35:42 PM
Capturing a Master Character would be a huge Influence gain/loss. Probably dramatic enough to cause an entire campaign's tables to be turned.

I say we do a mock battle using customized CORVs. Use this template:


Corellian Corvette (CORV)
Cost: 350 KC
Production Time: 3 Days
Length: 150m
Hyperdrive: x1
Shields: 300
Armor: 225
Hull: 75
Systems: 75
Speed: 3
Maneuver: 4
UCR: 7
Launch Bays: 1
Weapons:
2 Dual Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (40)
4 Heavy Ion Cannons (16)
2 Concussion Missile Launchers (4)
1 Tractor Beam Projector (100m)

Here's the reference chart to determine baseline damage:
HTL = 10
TL = 8
HIC = 4
IC = 3
HLC = 2
LC = 1
-------------
APT = 4
PT = 3
ACM = 3
CM = 2

CORV = 60 Emplacement Points

"Warhead Shooter"
20 Concussion Missile Tubes

"Turbonator"
6 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons

Enhanced Weapons Overhaul
Cost: -10% Shields
Gain: +10% increase to base emplacement points

Gunship Overhaul
Cost: -10% Armor/-10% Hull/-10% Systems
Gain: +20% Emplacement Points

Assault Ship Overhaul
Cost: -2 UCR
Gain: +10% Emplacement Points

This is just cursory for now, but the idea is that we would introduce a paper-rock-scissors dynamic with the weapons and platforms.

Capital Ship CMs: +1 UCR, x2 Damage vs SF/AUX
Capital Ship PTs: -1 UCR, x2 Damage vs SF/AUX
Capital Ship Lasers: +1 UCR vs SF/AUX
Capital Ship TL/ICs: -1 UCR, x2 Damage vs SF/AUX


If you used both upgrades for the CORV, it would have -10% Shields/Armor/Hull/Systems & -2 UCR, but gain an additional +24 Emplacement Points, which can be converted into +3 TLs, or +12 CMs, etc. This would have direct tactical implications... as in, you could completely reconfigure a stock CORV into a Pirate CORV with 20 Ion Cannons! Sure, it wouldn't do much physical damage, but the sheer threat of a CORV that can dish out a big chunk of systems damage would surely make a battle interesting...
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 05:48:23 PM
But how many points is each weapon worth as far as emplacement points? Their damage? Well if I raise the damage on the weapon does that raise the points it takes up, even though its just an ability? And would those modification options be mutually exclusive, or can I take all 3 to bump the ship up to 86 emplacement points?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 05:50:48 PM
Weapon damage = emplacement points.

2 Dual Heavy Turbolasers do 40 damage, so that's 40 Emplacement Points.
I could covert the DHTLs into regular TLs, so 40/8 = 5.
So, the CORV would now have 5 TLs as opposed to 2 DHTLs.

By increasing the number of weapon emplacements, you can increase the number of targets.

2 DHTL would overkill 2 X-Wings, or you could split them into 8 TLs so that you could put a dent into 8 X-Wings.

I suppose multiple overhauls would be acceptable, but you'd have a pretty weak CORV!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 05:53:31 PM
Question though, how did you turn an HTL into a TL? Those are completely separate weapon systems, lol.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
You don't. The only way for the overhaul system to work is if we stick to "Weapon Damage = Emplacement Points". It keeps things balanced.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 06:00:04 PM
Not sure if I like that system though. Cause no matter how you rearrange things, nothing changes on damage output. 60 points is 60 points. 2DHTLs still does the same damage as 4HTLs. Yeah I can target more things with it, but it still didnt change anything. The only thing that really matters with that system is which overhaul mod you pick.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 06:14:08 PM
If you would like to give me a moment to finish it, I have a system im working that takes into account energy consumption by the individual systems and the space they take up on the ship to figure a point system for everything. Just bare with me, im working with math that doesnt even come in number format anymore. Trying to figure out % of energy consumption on a system that generates 3.6x10^37 kv of energy is not exactly a fast process without a super-computer handy, lol.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 06:58:48 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry, brain broke. Had to be done.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get specific information like this on objects that dont really exist. ROFLMAO. That and what im seeing is, Star Wars didnt take energy output into account at all, because it takes more energy to fire a turbolaser then a venator class star destroyer generates total, lol. I may have to figure something else out here because realistically, under no amount of technology could these weapons exist, haha!!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 08:23:35 PM
Ok, so I had to basically throw out the power consumption model as George Lucas doesnt know anything about energy physics. LMAO!! But using the size dimensions and the amount of weapons vs power generation on the ships, im pretty sure I got a close approximation and using the existing stats for a CRV, it worked out damn close. Ive got a CRV at 150 points, and the standard model using the stuff I worked up clocks in at 142/150, and as we all know the CRV is a fairly inefficient ship, that sounds spot on. Let me know what you think. Also keep in mind, im not sure exactly what a UCR is, but judging by how you were using it im assuming it has something to do with how well it can target something. So all depending, those may need to be adjusted accordingly.

Corellian Corvette (CORV)
Cost: 350 KC
Production Time: 3 Days
Length: 150m
Hyperdrive: x1
Shields: 300
Armor: 225
Hull: 75
Systems: 75
Speed: 3
Maneuver: 4
UCR: 7
Launch Bays: 1
Weapons:
2 Dual Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (40)
4 Heavy Ion Cannons (16)
2 Concussion Missile Launchers (4)
1 Tractor Beam Projector (100m)


Corellian Corevette
Length: 150m (150 space points)
Shields: x2 300 (-30)
Hull: x2 300 (-30)
Systems: .5x length
Speed: base 3
Maneuver: base 4
UCR: base 7
Weapons:
2 DHTLs (-40)
4 HICs (-32)
2 CMs (-10)


Shield Generator - adds shield strength to a ship
Space Cost: .1 x length
Notes: Adds 1x length in shield points

Hull Armor - add hull strength to a ship (Must be added to all ships)
Space cost: .1x length
Notes: adds 1x length in hull points

Engine Power - add speed to a ship
Space Cost: .05x length
Notes: adds +1 to speed

Maneuvering Jets - adds maneuver to a ship
Space Cost: .05x length
Notes: adds +1 to maneuver

Heavy Turbolaser
Space Cost: 10
Notes: Does 8 damage, -1UCR and .5x damage vs starfighters

Turbolaser
Space Cost: 8
Notes: Does 5 damage, -1UCR vs starfighters

Heavy Ion Cannon
Space Cost: 8
Notes: Does 5 system damage, does 1 damage vs shields, -1UCR vs starfighters. Does not effect hull.

Ion Cannon
Space Cost: 5
Notes: Does 3 system damage, does 1 damage vs shields. Does not effect hull.

Heavy Laser Cannon
Space Cost: 3
Notes: Does 2 damage, does 2x damage vs starfighters, may target warheads.

Laser Cannon
Space Cost: 2
Notes: Does 1 damage, +1UCR and 2x damage vs starfighters, may target warheads.

Advanced Proton Torpedo
Space Cost: 10
Notes: Does 10 damage, -1UCR vs starfighters, takes 10pts to destroy.

Proton Torpedo
Space Cost: 8
Notes: Does 8 damage, -2UCR vs starfighters, takes 5pts to destroy.

Advanced Concussion Missile
Space Cost: 7
Notes: Does 5 damage, +2UCR, takes 5pts to destroy, may target warheads.

Concussion Missile
Space Cost: 5
Notes: Does 3 damage, +1UCR, takes 3pts to destroy, may target warheads.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 10:01:53 PM
Bro. Overkill. What you're getting into is basically a system where we can just completely overhaul/customize a ship from the ground up and take it to a point where it no longer resembles the original. That's not the intent.

Yes, in theory, one could completely gut out a CORV and turn it into the most badass warship ever. They did this. It's called a CGUN.

The point with the weapons overhaul system is that minor adjustments to the stock complement can be made. Yes, overall damage will remain the same, but how it's applied changes. 6 Dual Heavy TLs vs 20 Ion Cannons vs 30 Concussion Missile Tubes give completely different tactical advantages without radically changing what the CORV is to begin with. That's the idea.

Turbo-CORV would be excellent vs other capital ships, like the Tantive IV.
Ion-CORV would be a great pirate ship, that could be used to disable rather than destroy vessels.
Missile-CORV would make a great anti-SF platform.

At the end of the day, it's still a CORV, not some 150meter Frankenstein that has been dismantled and reassembled into a God of War.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 10:06:32 PM
Yeah, thats what I was talking about in the beginning. Starwars ships, unless you were in the empire, were rarely stock units. As my examples before, the Rebel Assault Frigate was a luxury transport ship outfitted with as many guns as they could fit on it, at the expense of EVERYTHING else. The YT-1300 doesnt even come stock with guns, but the Millenium Falcon has 2 heavy quad lasers and a retractable blaster turret. There really was no such thing as a "stock" vessel in StarWars. And in truth I was thinking of going the opposite way with it. Quad layer shields and a triple thick hull, and drop all the weapons but the 2 DHTLs.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 10:39:49 PM
Again, in theory, yes, we could do whatever we want. But simply to maintain the integrity of traditional gaming specs, I think we should adopt a fairly conservative spec system. We're recreating Armada/X-Wing in a hexgrid format with GCW specs and a few liberties to smooth everything over.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 05, 2015, 10:52:57 PM
Ahh, I was unaware that was decided on. However, I dont see how X-Wing would apply as its based on single fighter combat. Im hoping we are going a bit bigger in scale then that lol. As far as Armada, this is the first ive ever heard of it so I dont know what you mean with that.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 05, 2015, 11:24:57 PM
Some Old & New Ideas From This Thread, Revisited & Summarized

1. Phase-driven combat (Deploy/Damage, Maneuver, Battle, Repeat) on a hexgrid.

2. Using dice rolls to randomly initiate pre-scripted events for a particular campaign (i.e. event: "small gang war" at location: "compton")

3. Master Character + NPC Team. Characters will have RPG-flavored classes and attributes. The bigger/better and more badass an NPC is, the more Influence it requires your MC to wield (i.e. how Tarkin was able "to hold Vader's leash" as Leia put it).

4. Small scale space combat (ISD & Friends at the very most, ISD being a rare event).

5. Seswenna Sector overall (not only for story purposes, but so players can have their own little base somewhere), but action will mainly consist between individual systems for a length of time. The game will revolve around either the Rebel Alliance or Galactic Empire accruing a cumulative amount of Influence before the Sector is handed over.

6. Influence Points. Command Points. Emplacement Points. Experience Points.

 
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 10:29:53 AM


  Mostly all sound good.

   I think combat would be drastically simplified however if we aren't using every specific weapon emplacement.  Not sure if that was the intent, but looking at the CRV mods that was what I assumed from the listings.

  I think more of a comprehensive presentation of the abilities of a unit would better serve us.  Even to the point that Attacking may not even happen every Round, depending on what a ship/player wants to do.  Though Attacking may need to be separate from Actions even for Order of Battle/Phases.

  My thought (probably same as usual) is we give units an Action Potential (AP) rating.   Then for specs we simply list the actions it is capable of with descriptions.  So when it comes to unique abilities for a unit, it would be written as an ability directly in the spec.  Then all occurences in a battle are easily regulated with the same flow dynamic. . how much AP do they cost to execute and how much AP do you have to use?  This also helps with rule digging.  Rules tend to be written directly in to specs with what an Action Constitutes and How it's used directly in the spec for the ship.


   I have a drywall repair going on at house today but this evening will try to deliver a little quick example system of it with a couple exchanges between two ships.



   Addressing an order of battle/phases.  I totally think it's the way to go and a great shake up.  Rather than the old system of a player moves attacks and actions all in same post/turn, we make it phases for both players.  Basic order idea. . .


Beginning of Battle

    Deployment
  Player 1 deploys a unit
  Player 2 deploys a unit
  They cylce back and forth until all units for a battle are deployed


Round 1

    Movement
   Player 1 chooses a unit to move, moves it and commits to actions (presuming attacking is not part of AP in this case)
   Player 2 chooses a unit to move, movies it and commits to actions
   They cycle back and forth until all units have been moved

     Attack
   Player 1 chooses a unit to attack with, a target, executes attack.
   Player 2 chooses a unit to attack with, a target, executes attack.

     Resolution
    Player 1 resolves all actions, and takes damage.
    Player 2 resolves all actions and takes damage.
    End Round 1


Round 2

     Movement
   Player 2 begins movement in this phase to rotate.  Battle proceeds in same format until withdrawal/defeat/conclusion.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 10:41:27 AM
Oh my. Thats some hiroglyphics there man. With all due respect as it is a good idea, I just think that may be a bit more complicated then what we are shooting for. Youre talking 3 or more posts for a single round of action, and I see people, very much myself, having problems keeping track of what is all going on and who is on what phase of actions. Is there any way to simplify that at all?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 11:04:50 AM
Well when you think about it, most tabletop games are VERY SLOW, even if it's just a 1 X-Wing vs 2 TIE Fighters.
If you guys have played (old school) BattleTech before, it uses a hexgrid as well. Combat is phase-driven. Even a 1v1 battle takes forever.
But that's okay I think. In this day and age, we can't handle 24/7 round-the-clock combat. We need phases to maximize participation.
If that's SLOW, so be it!

Something I always liked about BattleTech was that targeting an enemy unit was dependent on a few things:
1. Gunnery. The piloting skill of your character or if your Mech has amazing targeting computers.
2. Ranges. Depending on which weapon you use, distance from you to the target negatively impacted your dice roll.
3. Movement. The number of grids the target moved bumped up the "to hit" number you needed to reach.

It was a very dynamic game, and even though combat was phase-driven, both Movement & Shooting were considered to happen simultaneously. So, both players would reconcile damage at the end, regardless of what happened.

What we're talking about doing is recreating a tabletop-style combat game. We can't do that with traditional simming mechanics where we just take turns posting. We need to think "outside the battle post" if gaming on this forum is to survive.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 11:08:03 AM
Oh my. Thats some hiroglyphics there man. With all due respect as it is a good idea, I just think that may be a bit more complicated then what we are shooting for. Youre talking 3 or more posts for a single round of action, and I see people, very much myself, having problems keeping track of what is all going on and who is on what phase of actions. Is there any way to simplify that at all?


   Well the idea is we scale things so that a battle is likely to last only 3-5 Rounds anyways.  But yes it would break up the usual style of posting and result in much more posting.  What it hinges on basically is that we are keeping our own grids and updating them with each movement to keep track of what is where.  Of course, officially, we could post a new grid with locations clearly simply marked at end of each round.

   When we are talking just the 3 of us, it shouldnt' ever get too inflated to become too complex.  It's just a simple back and forth and actually easier to know what you're doing when you're only moving one unit at a time as opposed to moving a whole bundle of them at a time. 

    Not all that much is changing from one post to another, so the progress is slower and it requires more posts.  But the way it translates with the flow in my mind represents a more "realistic" simulation of combat unfolding rapidly and subjects involved reacting without much fore thought or total knowledge of the entire scene.

   This is in general how numerous table top games unfold in order to give both players an equal chance to adjust on fly to battle field developments.  It would take a bit of practice of course, because for 20+ yrs we've always done it the other All in One way.  But after seeing the fruits of how it improves the game in tabletopping so much, I think it's a must for really produce a game any different from the old ones we've done.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 11:33:31 AM
Point taken. However, do keep in mind, im more of a specialized gamer. I played D&D, and ive pretty much mastered that, but outside of that, Ive played X-wing. That and I played 1 part of a mission for the Stargate RPG at GaryCon, 3 years ago. Other then that ive never played any other tabletop game. Im a video gamer mostly. I played Halo professionally, I will show you god at Mass Effect or Destiny. Dragon Age, Skyrim, and Fallout 3 arnt even a challenge on their hardest modes anymore. But you guys keep dropping all these references, and I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I know about BattleTech was a book I read in the library in Junior High. But yeah, just so you know, you guys keep dropping all these names of stuff and im sitting here like: "Are they speaking english?" LMAO!!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 11:43:46 AM
This took about 30 minutes to build in PowerPoint, after scouring the internet for top-view pictures of SW vessels. It was easy.

My overall vision for this game...
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/Mockup_zpsv6tqsins.png)

Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 11:51:38 AM
Back in the glory days, we were able to keep track of multiple units and their headings in massive 20x20 square grids.
If we can't do the same thing in a 10x10 hexgrid as adults, then we got bigger problems.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 12:28:36 PM
No no, Hale, not what I meant. You just showed me exactly what I was basically asking. You were referencing visuals to things I had no idea what they were, so I needed something to see what you were talking about cause I dont know what Armada or BattleTech is outside of a vague title name.

And I really really like what you have there, perhaps it was intentional, but limiting squadrons to groups of 3 for rebels and 4 for Imps (provided all they get are T/F, T/I, and T/Bs) is a great idea!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 12:38:06 PM
Another thing I would like to see, which I know is about to be unpopular, but especially with that kind of grid set up is doing away with that "You can move then fire, or fire then move" BS. I mean, with all due respect, that takes everything out of tactical combat dealing with speed. Everyone just goes for the biggest gun-toting tank they can wield and takes it to hell and back. You can never fire and then get out of weapons range again, so under said system, speed and maneuver is completely irrelevant. By just saying if a ship gets 3 grid movement it can move 3 grids, regardless of what it does in between that movement, adds way more tactical combat. And yes, I know what this sets us up for, but thats kind of my point. Taking the big tank no longer becomes the best option when I can take a CRV, constantly dance around outside your weapons range, and just pick you off over time. You would actually have to think about whats in your fleet, and accessing options you normally wouldnt consider because speed is now a valuable asset. I think we should put some thought into and consider this.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 02:54:45 PM
Well that's the thing, with a dedicated Maneuver/Movement Phase, players take turns positioning their units based on initiative and speed.
This is a place where specs are going to require more work, as in, some units might have the ability to move last even if they won the initiative check.

Suppose for that posted picture, Movement initiative went like this:
1. Missiles-in-flight
2. Torpedoes-in-flight
3. TIE Fighters
4. X-Wings
5. YT-1300
6. TIE Bombers
7. CORVs
8. Y-Wings
9. ISD

Weapons initiative could be the reverse:
1. ISD
2. Y-Wings
3. CORVs
4. TIE Bombers
5. YT-1300
6. X-Wings
7. TIE Fighters
8. Launched Torpedoes
9. Launched Missiles

By flip-flopping the order of initiative for fire and movement, it gives the faster units preference for maneuvering and the slower units preference for shooting. In reality, a CORV could not move-fire-move without also getting into the weapons range of the ISD and taking some hits. The best way for the CORVs to win would be to constantly run circles around the ISD so only 1 CORV would be in a firing arc at any given time.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 03:27:22 PM
So we are making individual posts for each unit? I dont recall anything about an initiative phase. I assumed it would just be 1 person posts, then the other so on and so forth.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 04:33:53 PM
I was only conjecturing about individual units, because that would solve the "fire-move-fire" / "move-fire-move" debate by removing turn-based combat. Individual unit movement would take more time, but I think it would be more balanced. It wouldn't matter who goes first, since everything will be decided on the initiative of each unit.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
All Agreed.

Drywall project almost wrapped up ;p


"This is a place where specs are going to require more work, as in, some units might have the ability to move last even if they won the initiative check."

  Yes, exactly.  We basically give units uniqueness and varying tactical use in their ability to bend the common rules.  This is exactly how X-Wing achieves near flawless balance.  Phases, Actions and Tactical Variation by Rule Bending more or less.

  So for instance maybe an A-Wing has some ability to move after it fires, unlike most other units, purely because of it's "blistering speed"

  Maybe a TIE Bomber can more easily deliver ordinance then all other units because of it's singular role design specialization etc.

  Maybe a particular pilot is a Daredevil and any ship he's piloting gains some extra Evasion ability.

  Etc etc etc etc.  etc =) 
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 06:48:37 PM


  Hey, whats our name?

  Galactic Civil War - The Lost Campaigns?
  Galactic Civil War - Confrontation?
  Galactic Civil War - Influence & Injury?
  Galactic Civil War - The Sesweena Campaign (simply using GCW and new name for each successive campaign?)
  Galactic Civil War - Tactics? ;p


Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 06:58:13 PM
This took about 30 minutes to build in PowerPoint, after scouring the internet for top-view pictures of SW vessels. It was easy.

My overall vision for this game...
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/Mockup_zpsv6tqsins.png)

this battle I would hope to see as a climax.  I like the set up generally though.  Spacing is decent, it could stand to be one space larger (as on long row = 6 instead of 5 and adjust to 3x3).  If this is like a big battle, then smaller battles will still have room to move.  I think the space on a grid should be considered just a parcel of space, not respresenting an entire system or anything like that.  It's just a field upon which to measure some tactical differences for us in combat, not a representation of the total story concept of the local area. Although in some instances I suppose we could work them in to have a planet peaking in several corners of a grid etc?

 also of course we at some point need atmosphere flying battles and ground as well.  but should try and stick to same grid template for all.

treating fighters in flights like that will be good, the 3v4 count of Imp/Reb helps keep the numerical issue in check and to canon ideals.  We could treat the flights as taking damage to only one ship at a time then more conceivably than doing so with full squads of 12 together.  Can also easily make charts for any unit abilities/stats that are columned off for strength of the squad/flight...100/66/33 in case of rebs.  100/75/50/25 in case of Imps.  Just side thought that sprang up. 
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 07:03:18 PM
Well that's the thing, with a dedicated Maneuver/Movement Phase, players take turns positioning their units based on initiative and speed.
This is a place where specs are going to require more work, as in, some units might have the ability to move last even if they won the initiative check.

Suppose for that posted picture, Movement initiative went like this:
1. Missiles-in-flight
2. Torpedoes-in-flight
3. TIE Fighters
4. X-Wings
5. YT-1300
6. TIE Bombers
7. CORVs
8. Y-Wings
9. ISD

Weapons initiative could be the reverse:
1. ISD
2. Y-Wings
3. CORVs
4. TIE Bombers
5. YT-1300
6. X-Wings
7. TIE Fighters
8. Launched Torpedoes
9. Launched Missiles

By flip-flopping the order of initiative for fire and movement, it gives the faster units preference for maneuvering and the slower units preference for shooting. In reality, a CORV could not move-fire-move without also getting into the weapons range of the ISD and taking some hits. The best way for the CORVs to win would be to constantly run circles around the ISD so only 1 CORV would be in a firing arc at any given time.

  I think the units that move first though are at more of a disadvantage.  Especially when it would come to choosing actions if that were the system opted for.  Because of that, moving first should also fire first to make up for moving without less of a picture of the field.  The unit that moves last is somewhat in the best postion because it is moving after having seen what everythign else did. ISD gets to move last and fire first, that is too much benefit.  It acts after everything so knows exactly what it needs to do to accomplish its goals, then it gets privilege of leveling something first.  Especially for that ship.

  So you flip it from round to round for the players.  But keeping it so players can arbitrarily choose which unit to activate/move first makes it simpler than establishing a set scheme for OoB of units doesn't it?  Just thinking out loud is all.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 08:46:51 PM

Example


Reb Forces
1 CRV
1 YW Flight
1 XW Flight  +Ace Squad Leader (1 Free Action to friendly squad within range 2, 1 Free Evade for Own Squad)

Imp Forces
1 VSD
2 TF Flights


   Reb player wins a flip for first initiative and moves first.

   Chooses his XWs (thinking they are most versatile, move them first because they can fare better in most any development than the other ships).  Since he moved them first, and they already have 1 free Evade from the Ace Pilot, he chooses to Focus them (can be used for offense or defense).

   Imp player chooses 1 TF Flight.  Moves them.  They have 1 Passive Evade at all times inherently being TIEs.  As a baseline ship (like XWs will be for rebs) they have Focus ability as well as Active Evade so must choose between those two for the action.  They choose another active Evade.

   Reb Player chooses CRV moves it.  As a heavier ship of the Alliance, the CRV has some bite to it and maneuverability as well.  It can either Concentrate Fire, Boost Engines (a mod effect?!), Coordinate (boost another friendly), or some other shit.  It chooses to Concentrate Fire, so come it's attack phase gets some kind of offensive bonus.

  Imp player chooses his other TF Flight and moves them.  Does the same and commits to an Active Evade for it's action.

   Reb Player takes final unit YWs and moves them.  They are assault type craft I figure.  Their abilities are Focus and Target Lock.  They choose Target Lock on the VSD (having assumed to moved in to range of it).

   Imp player chooses his VSD and moves it.  For his action he chooses to deploy another (let's say his last) Flight of TFs.  They cannot action this round or move any further.  Only attack (a bonus to moving and deploying perhaps?).


   Move phase is over.  We would chart the movements on the grid, maybe note the actions next to them post it and move to combat phase.


   Combat Phase

   Reb player had to move first without knowing where everyting else would be come attack time, so they get to attack first as well.  He chooses XWs who opt to engage one of the TF Squads.  They are at a distance yet so it is an initial pass on each other more or less.  We could rate fighters in categories of Attack perhaps- Strafing, Dogfighting, Assault.  So until arrival of AWings, XW would be Rebs best Dogfighter.  TFs would obviously be a grade above.  So Rebs would have to some degree also rely on improving with pilots maybe?  This would encourage any one who was a Reb Commander character to take a Squad Leader Support character.  Programming some forced dynamics in to rules and shit. (im getting wwaaay off track here) So the XWs are in Strafing category of Attack right now, they have the edge on the TFs (until they are in same grid space which is when Dogfighting would be used?).  This now forces ships to move around, instead of remaining static.  They have some value, let's call it 5 for the time being and TFs of 4, so full damage would be dealt.  So they'd deal 5 damage to the TFs unresolved.  They had Focused, so they could use the Focus to add +1 to their Attack.  But instead they save it to add -1 to any incoming.

   Imp Player now gets to attack.  Chooses VSD.  VSD attacks the CRV.  It's a general Turbolaser Attack (maybe it has like 4 basic Attack types for diff weapons).  Being an offensive weapon laiden powerhouse lets say it can attack twice, so it's second attack is Concussion Missile Attack on the YWs.  Say VSDs Maneuver vs CRV is 2/4.  50% of it's max damage for the TL attack is dealt.  Lets say 25pts.  Say the CM attack has it's own Maneuver rating vs YWs, which is 3/5, so 60% damage is dealt to them. lets say 12pts.  All unresolved yet, pending Action outcomes if any (unless we just work resolutions in to the combat phase which is possible, just presuming nothing is destroyed until the whole combat phase has run and the next round begins) anywyas..

   Reb Player now chooses the YWs.  They are definitely taking some good damage from VSD, so before the Imp player can use his other TFs to possible disrupt the assault ships, he's going to get their Attack off.  (we build in some Abort Attack rule for Rebel fighters with Hyperdrive maybe?  Reflecting nature of Rebellions tactics, if they are taking too much damage they can abort their attack and escape to Hyperspace? perhaps at an Influence Penalty for whoever deployed them?).  The YWs use their Assault value vs the VSD.  The Maneuvers are 5/2 (we know these values from established previous values in this Combat round), so it's 100%.  The Assault value of YWs lets say is 10.  They have a target lock remember, which come resolution multiplies final damage by 2 lets say.

   Imp Player now chooses TF1.  They attack XW.  Units are in strafing/jousting face off so the values are 4/5 we know from when the XWs attacked them.  So TFs will deal 80% strafing/joust face off damage.  4*0.8 = 3.2 (we establish rounding regulations, i say .5 round down, .6 up).  TFs will deal 3pts of unresolved dmg to XWs (XWs dealt 5.  5 vs 3 pts dmg.  Somewhat balanced so far)

   Reb Player now chooses CRV. CRV has concentrated fire so is preparing to attack the VSD.  Attacks VSD with its most powerful Turbolaser Attack.  + Concentrated Fire, which lets say equals x2 all pre-resolved damage.  CRVs does full 100% dmg because it's Maneuver comparison is 100% (4/2).  Let's say 15pts.  x2 is 30pts.  unresolved.

   

   You get idea.  Sorry. I meant to only show how the OoB would go in that dynamic.  Got off in to specific rule dynamics.  Too far yet =)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 09:15:58 PM
Does anyone else feel that whole system is really just setting us up for battles that are nothing more then an endless series of 1 sentence posts? I mean, these are wonderful idea's and I dont want to discourage further development, but you guys are setting up a system thats more intended for chatroom style combat. You are talking about each individual unit have to post a move, then post an action, then post an attack, then post damage. Thats gunna get monotonous real quick.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
Yeah, I think short battle posts are going to be the norm. This is actually a good thing: by doing less per post, players can actually commit more time overall to the battle. We can jump online in the morning while partaking in our coffee, during the lunch break, and then once at night. Whereas before, we'd be lucky if we get organized and have enough time to do a proper battle post with SL and tactics, etc.

If a typical Rebel force is 2 CORV + 6 X-Wings + 3 Y-Wings... then this shouldn't be a problem anyway.

Here is a big grid, more of what I had in mind.
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/GCWhexgrid_zpsqnnzpf49.png)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 09:27:47 PM
[]quote]Does anyone else feel that whole system is really just setting us up for battles that are nothing more then an endless series of 1 sentence posts? [/quote]

   As opposed to a compiled list of it done all at once?  What's the difference then?  The difference in phases at least changes the tactics of what you do first and what not at least imo.  The more we wire in Abilities and such.  The more the options on the field open up and the more variety you end up with.

   Example being the Abort Attack ability of Reb Fighters with HD.  If they find themselves in a unhealthy position too quickly they bust up.  At cost of influence to commander or something.

   All just vague tip of iceberg.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 09:29:44 PM

  Hey, whats our name?

  Galactic Civil War - The Lost Campaigns?
  Galactic Civil War - Confrontation?
  Galactic Civil War - Influence & Injury?
  Galactic Civil War - The Sesweena Campaign (simply using GCW and new name for each successive campaign?)
  Galactic Civil War - Tactics? ;p

GCW: The Lost Campaigns is the accepted name for what our next game will be, because we are moving into a gray creative area where the new movies are basically going to rewrite canon.  Under the Lost Campaigns umbrella will be "The Seswenna Conflict" or whatever region of space we want to hold our story. We decided on Seswenna Sector a while back, so I think we should run with that first.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 09:31:28 PM
Yeah, I think short battle posts are going to be the norm. This is actually a good thing: by doing less per post, players can actually commit more time overall to the battle. We can jump online in the morning while partaking in our coffee, during the lunch break, and then once at night. Whereas before, we'd be lucky if we get organized and have enough time to do a proper battle post with SL and tactics, etc.

exactomundo
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 09:37:09 PM
Well no, I mean I get what youre saying. Im just pointing out this is what combat is going to look like.

Reb X-wing group moves (1 post)
Imp T/F group moves (1 post)
Reb X-wing 2 group moves (1 post)
Imp T/B group moves (1 post)
Reb CRV 1 moves (1 post)
Reb CRV 2 moves (1 post)
Imp VSD moves (1 post)
Reb Y-Wing group moves (1 post)

Now assuming as you were talking you make a quick post before work, and I post promptly after, then you make another before you get home, I still post promptly after, you maybe make 1 more before bed... wash rinse repeat, then we are talking 3 days worth of posting and we havnt even gotten into weapons range yet. There is no way im going to be able to maintain interest in that and you would have patience unknown to mankind if you can.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 06, 2015, 11:23:47 PM
I hear you Ram, but is X-Wing Minis any different?
What we have going on right now on the drawing boards is the most complex battle sim we've attempted, so it's going to have to go through this development period before we figure out the kinks.

I suppose, we could entertain the possibility of a single move phase, where you move everything under your control.

Option B: Fire & Movement for individual units based on initiative. You do all the actions for a unit in a single post, and we take turns, like:
1. TIE Fighter moves to H-3, fires on X-Wings in H-2.
2. X-Wings fire on TIE Fighters, move to I-4.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 06, 2015, 11:27:34 PM
What we have going on right now on the drawing boards is the most complex battle sim we've attempted, so it's going to have to go through this development period before we figure out the kinks.

I suppose, we could entertain the possibility of a single move phase, where you move everything under your control.

Option B: Fire & Movement for individual units based on initiative. You do all the actions for a unit in a single post, and we take turns, like:
1. TIE Fighter moves to H-3, fires on X-Wings in H-2.
2. X-Wings fire on TIE Fighters, move to I-4.

  Those are good alternatives to consider as well.  All in all it is def just a matter of testing to figure what will work best for the flow and speed of progress/level of management we want to achieve while protecting tactical integrity of it all. 

   The All At Once thing I think is just definitely one of the sources of the work load we've experienced lately in association with trying to piece together a smooth game.  Changing it also breaks up the monotony of the usual routine.  At least for me.  The point of time consumption made earlier is very valid as well.  Doing a little at a time as opposed to all at once will definitely flush out better for development of a battle and I think to be honest do more to keep interest for the players cozy.

   And again thats only the battle aspect of the game.  There will need to be the numerous other mechanics affecting Influence and Character attributes playing roles and everything.

   Hale, could you post a pack of those top view icons on the forum so we can all grab and access them?  For final presentation and all we can bank all map markers in a specific thread for back up to copy and paste or something etc.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 06, 2015, 11:56:54 PM
Time out, is there a way to use those little top view icons and grid as a drop and play system? Use them as ACTUAL miniatures? That would make individual unit movement way more viable all you are doing is moving a token on a battlegrid, then simply save the posts for any applicable actions or attacks. Possibility?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 07, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
There are not an exhaustive amount of top view images for everything Star Wars under the sun. It was easy to find an ISD, because ISDs (and starfighters) are famous, but for VSDs and below --- it's slim pickings. I know it would be nice to have a graphical presentation of everything, but the images just aren't out there.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 12:09:49 AM
Does the size of the image matter, or can you fix them all to look like the ones you have currently?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 07, 2015, 12:11:51 AM
Original image size doesn't matter.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 12:20:31 AM
Give me moment. <heavy russian accent>
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 01:03:08 AM
A-Wing, Bulk Cruiser, CGun, and VSD
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 01:06:22 AM
The entire Mon Cal class of vessels
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 01:06:58 AM
The rest of the rebel non-MC stuff
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 01:09:33 AM
Corellian class vessels (CR Cruiser, CR Destroyer, CC7700, CGun, Liberator), INT, Pirate Cruiser, and an SSD just because they are fun to look at, lmao!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 07, 2015, 01:11:12 AM
So start matching those up with the ships you plan on having, then let me know what you still need. =)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 07, 2015, 01:03:20 PM
most reb ships all in one

(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jjstepanski/SWSF%20II/Vv69X_zpsx3kfl62f.gif)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 07, 2015, 04:47:25 PM
Alternatively, we could always use X-Wing vs TIE Fighter style silhouette diagrams as visual representations of a ship.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 10, 2015, 07:53:12 PM
hell we can use dots for all I care  ;)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 11, 2015, 09:30:26 AM
Oh I dont care about that stuff. I just thought it would look cool if we all had little tokens on a grid instead of just "Im in D-8". Its not that important though.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 11, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Unless we all learned how to put pictures on pictures (I use Paint and PowerPoint for 100% of my graphic arts), then posting in images will need some work. The irony is that even if we have pictures, we still need to post other information via text (weapons, special abilities, etc). The other issue I see is maintaining starfighters and ships in the same grid.

Picture-on-picture gaming is one of those brick walls I don't think is feasible to cross, but I do I think a hybrid approach is worth pursuing if it means getting this game off the ground.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 11, 2015, 10:49:27 AM
Well I was just talking a little paste and drop system. Like we have a grid, then we have all the little tokens on the side and you drag them over and place them on the grid. Yeah you'd still have to post everything, but it would also give us a visual of everything happening. They dont have to do anything but be on the grid where we drag them. Maybe a rotate button to make sure they face the right way.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 11, 2015, 11:43:38 AM
See now we're getting into some next level web design/programming that is probably beyond Hop's level of expertise and time willingness.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 11, 2015, 11:43:47 PM
Well, as far as time, that may be. Cant really speak for him or his willingness on that. However as far as expertise, thats some 9th grade computer concepts stuff, lol. You need a grid, and a token you can drag around it. Thats like 4 lines of code plus the tokens.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 17, 2015, 08:11:32 AM
Well enthusiasm for that idea faded fast, lol.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 18, 2015, 09:46:57 AM
I'm doing some private testing of some ideas. I can't decide if our scale is too big.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 18, 2015, 11:11:45 AM
-makes a speech about transparency in government- lol

Well what you working on, perhaps I can help?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 19, 2015, 10:29:29 AM
I can't decide if our scale is too big.

  it is  ;D
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on March 20, 2015, 10:53:36 AM
See now we're getting into some next level web design/programming that is probably beyond Hop's level of expertise and time willingness.

Yep :D

Especially with 4 month old!
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 20, 2015, 03:27:44 PM

   So it's Level of Expertise then?  ;D
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 20, 2015, 03:51:26 PM
I'm doing some private testing of some ideas. I can't decide if our scale is too big.


   Slightly different/added idea that may help slightly blend our conflict of scales/scope/doable...

        You take a given region of space, a sector, a handful of systems, an outback not totally charted area so we can discover or add stuff in etc.

        You add an ISD who is in the region to extend the Empire's influence and reign it in.


        You add a Rebel group whose basic goal is:  Destroying the ISD.


        So the game get's built around this ISD as the trophy piece basically.  Everythign the Empire faction/player(s) would do revovles around it.  It is their base of ops (maybe they can establish others, planetside etc).  We built it strong as hell, so it will take some tricks to actually ever destroy it.

        The Rebels get trash to start basically.  They have to build up, challenge the ISD.  Widdle away at it's support, find ways to sabotage it, etc.  Maybe strike team has to sneak on board, maybe there are skirmish battles, maybe the Rebs work up to a large offensive against it, and send in all they have in the region. . (a frigate, few corvs and fighters?)

    Anyway, basically the whole game is just designed around this simple concept.  Take an ISD, drop it in a region of space, and the Empire does it's thing and the Rebs do their thing.


    We stay away from TOTAL CONTROL dynamics where a player/faction completely controls a world or not at all, and get more specific with resources/improvements and such.  Management is more about managing your "Horde" so to speak, than managing your "Empire".

   Of course stick with all the RPG aspects we've been discussing.  And this doesn't alter the generals about combat being delved in to really.  Just a story background premise to frame a scope/scale.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 20, 2015, 04:43:40 PM
See, that idea feels very much like an old Lord of the Rings board game I had where the balance of it was absolute trash. It was basically the forces of Sauron had to destroy every vestige of the forces of good, and build a tower, and conquer specific cities to win, all the forces of good had to do to win was have victory in 3 random battles.

This feels the same way. The imps have to gain influence, kill the rebels, and what not else to achieve victory. All I have to do is kill an ISD, which as any simming vet knows, really isnt that difficult. It just seems like the game would last 1 economy period and be done. Posting board masturbation in essence, a lot of work for 2 weeks of gaming and very little pay off.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 20, 2015, 10:41:14 PM
This feels the same way. The imps have to gain influence, kill the rebels, and what not else to achieve victory. All I have to do is kill an ISD, which as any simming vet knows, really isnt that difficult. It just seems like the game would last 1 economy period and be done. Posting board masturbation in essence, a lot of work for 2 weeks of gaming and very little pay off.

you are thinking along the lines of a basic normal sim style game we always play.  thats not what I was talking about. at any rate just tossing out concepts.

scaling will be an issue with the sort of games we seem to be aiming to incorporate.  imo the Sink the Bismarck mechanic makes for a very simple very easily designed contained game that helps the end of what we are shooting for.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 21, 2015, 08:56:24 AM
Oh and I agree with your points, I just dont agree with the idea of having the game with such an easily achievable win condition.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 21, 2015, 01:31:44 PM
with such an easily achievable win condition.

well the idea would be that the Rebellion is in infancy and/or so limited logistically in the region that it's difficult for it to muster the force to simply confront the ISD in a sluggers space battle with mon cals or even a swarm of corvettes.

Basically the position an SSD would occupy in a traditional style sim, the ISD would occupy that here, except without all the associated empire micro management, and supplemental supporting armadas.  So there'd be no total faction representation or anything, it's just a remote/isolated theatre/campaign.

A small rebel cell maybe even plotting to strike a blow to the tyranny of the Empire by taking out one of it's mighty "unsinkable" Imperator class Star Destroyers.

Have to keep in mind we were looking to a more RPGish approach of build up with a tactical sim style combat of sorts.  So Rebels would be slinking around chasing some story concept that helps build up towards some actual tangible game mechanic point where they can either actually unleash some potent force (probably a bunch of fighters, freighters maybe a corvette, a frigate would be pinnacle for them and they'd have to work towards getting it a lot etc).

Things like that.

Maybe the Reb Cell starts out with just some fighters and handful of support ships.   Maybe one of the first "Missions" so to speak, is a replenishment frigate arriving in region to resupply the ISD.  Maybe the Rebels want to capture that ship.  At any rate, we heavily skew specs to this ISD is very very very hard to kill in the traditional sense.

we build in some rpg type mechanics where the ISD can be penetrated by strike teams, rich story environment type stuff.  maybe they can enact certain aspects that would hinder the ISD.  Like sabotage things.  For instance, maybe they can sabotage part of it's shielding somehow, so then there's more of a shot for an outright assault on it.

etc etc etc.  Just an idea in infancy to build on. 

But we incorporate character rpg rule type stuff in to it for building up abilities.  characters can be used primarily to improve how units behve on battle grid etc.  shit of such nature.


If/when the objective is achieved and the ISD were destroyed, well the games at a junction or end point.  We can build a new campaign with the rules/what we've learned etc.  No game lasts forever.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 21, 2015, 01:56:10 PM
Well, depending on how you do the rules, destroying an ISD is as simple as 2 squads of B-Wings and a frigate, lol.

I liked where you were going with right up until you got to the win conditions. I really like the influence idea. Like instead of controlling money or planets we simply control influence. Influence determines what you can field. I also like the extreme limited scope. I just cant get my head around that whole idea of you do this, game over. What if we dont want to stop playing then? What if the one person lost due to posting board glitches or inability to post? What if one of the players like me is smothering you with activity and in 2 weeks im set for my win condition and you guys are still working on your 2nd posts? Im just afraid of spending all this time and effort on a game that we finish faster then we designed it. I mean, with all due respect if I wanted to play a board game i'd just go play X-Wing. Im looking for a little more investment then a month worth of game.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 21, 2015, 02:18:23 PM

  1) B Wings wouldn't be in the timeline.  Or available in that number based on premise anyways.
  2) A Frigate would be a feat for the infant Rebellion to come by
  3) It would last way longer than a month.  You wouldn't be able to Smother.  There'd be no dynamic where the person with the most amount of time to put in wins.  That's not how the game would work.  The ISD would be a behemoth man.  Scale scale scale.  We could use a timeline of before Yavin even.  So Xs would be new to Rebs.  Mon Cal wasn't even a thing yet for the Rebs.  They were secretive sneaking around trying to build some support and stay alive and subvert the Empire.  In the reality of this time period, even the dropping of an ISD would be a HUGE success for them. (the Death Star was a fluke aided only by Force and Jedi).  The region would be small, a sector, seswenna even if desired (though I'd prefer something else).  The Rebels would start out with like a core character group a squadron and a transport base, almost like in GCWI sort of scale.  Time to process events and achievements would prove that it takes a long time for Rebs to build up strength to confront ISD openly.  So they have to wage a diff kind of campaign, hence the RPG tilt as well.  Reb CO has to build influence in region, maybe he gets to a point and he can get another squadron of fighters. he's got 2 squads now, maybe he can launch an attack to try and capture a frigate.  we script in events like frigate replenishment  (in rules we date it even, example, 3rd Fri/Sat/Sun every month an Imperial resupply Frigate arrives at X Location.  Things of this nature.  Keep in mind- this is not your grand pappys sim construct, this is a sim/rpg hybrid as per our formulative discussions.

  4) It's more realistic of what we should expect to design a game with a finite concept for the time being.  We aren't looking to make the normal style game we always build, so the best thing to do is remain flexible without over stretching.   We can take what we learn from new concepts and phase structure and influence and character building concepts and grow on the next venture.  Possibly porting the characters and growth and such but who knows where itll all go.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 21, 2015, 02:35:52 PM
All wonderful ideas, and I think we should definitely run with them. I just think the win condition needs to be a little more complex then "Kill the ISD". If you recall, there was a reason we didnt use them in past sims even though they were available. When faced against a person putting together a speed fleet, the ISD loses every time. Its such a slow, lumbering, behemoth that you just do circles around it and park behind the thing, light it up like a christmas tree.

I think a far better idea would be to play stronger off the influence thing. Like we have to remove the others influence to win. That way if/when we kill an ISD the influence hit is crippling, but its not quite game over yet.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 21, 2015, 10:27:30 PM
I think I got it. However, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to communicate this idea, so let me just go for it.

I like how Star Wars: Rogue Leader/Rogue Squadron basically revolved around the player taking control of a single vehicle or SF and completing objectives amidst a larger battlefield where background action was assumed to be going on (particularly the Battle of Hoth).

I also like how Star Wars: Battlefront also had a similar concept, but kept the focus more on ground battles.

I think, if we are going to have a discussion about scale, I personally think it would be really fun to create a single character that could be utilized in a myriad of battlefield and off-battlefield ways, and having that character pilot/command no more than a group of 3 starfighters, or a platoon of troops. Our characters would be Commanders/Captains basically. If we utilized this model, then we could really drill down on super-detailed specs and abilities, but minimizing the overall amount of units we need to keep track of during a typical combat post.

A scenario I envision could be a Medium Transport defense/Escape from Hoth... the player character takes command of an SF group, and must successfully destroy an incoming TIE Fighter squadron so that the GR-75 can make it to the hyperspace jump point.

By having recurring scenarios built into the sector we're using, players could bounce from system to system, picking fights where they can, but always forced into deciding between the greater good or the lesser of two evils (i.e. do they take a no-risk smuggle mission, or convoy defense mission?) The game needs to be structured like clockwork, such that, if you removed all players, certain events will happen no matter what that will determine the outcome of influence.

Those are just my initial thoughts thus far, but my bottom line is this: I'm just really tired of commanding capital ship task forces.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 22, 2015, 12:33:07 AM
All a great concept Hale and expression reflecting what I feel in general would make for a good diverse different fun game.



Quote
but my bottom line is this: I'm just really tired of commanding capital ship task forces.

 word



   I'm very much in tune with the concept of the actual game board battles we play out occupying a more focused part of a larger scene.  This would obviously apply to larger battle scapes.  There could be small skirmish conflicts that involved nothing more than character groups to begin with anyways even in overall story essence.  The concept of scheduled events that may be going on at certain points for players to make use of at discretion is something I think will really help drive progress and conflict.  The influence factor could come in to play with the small focused group of characters we as players are controlling and improving it.  A certain level of Influence perhaps gains a little bit larger of a force able to be weilded or perhaps some new upgrade in talent or skill or use for it.

   The character creation/use process then is tied easily directly to battle effect because it all centers around the core group of characters/small tight unit we use anyways

   I think the setting should still then be restricted in some sense to a sector, region, cluster or handful of star systems even.  When we pick a grid out to use then even, it's just a microcosm or fragment of a larger area.  If it's meant to be close quarters, with the unit size we are talking we can even easily make it a building with interior effects etc.  A ground battle might revolve around a key point with only a small amount of forces represented on the grid, by no means a reflection of the whole planet.

   Depending upon location use and time frame, if remote enough, forces could even be so sparse that platoons/companies is all you really see except in unusual climactic capacities.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 23, 2015, 11:13:37 PM
Well for starters we're going to need to rethink this game as character-based rather than unit-based. We're going to need RPG style sheets and such. We can revisit my D100 template, or steal and modify another.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on March 26, 2015, 12:51:16 PM
Sounds interesting. I'll be listening in... I like RPG approach to combat, versus hard math (even with UCR) a la vintage simming. The RPG approach just leaves more room to do things, rather than totaling up lasers.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 26, 2015, 04:10:37 PM
So in other words you guys want to play Spell-jammer. D&D in space. You know they already have systems set up to do this right? LMAO. If thats all you guys wanted why didnt you say so, I have every book ever made for D&D, including these.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 26, 2015, 10:08:27 PM
Ur killin me Smalls.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 27, 2015, 12:00:10 AM
I think you misunderstood what I meant. What I was saying was, the systems are already in place for what you are talking about doing, thus you would only need to design the equipment and ships you plan on using.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 27, 2015, 10:01:09 AM
Well, the templates are in place yes, but we need to modify it so there isn't any dice to create a new system.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 27, 2015, 10:37:11 AM
As a 30 year table-top RPG veteran I can tell you with absolute certainty, a table-top RPG will not work without dice. To equal out the randomized system it would involve so much math none of us would be able to figure it out. Ive had a few friends try to design a table-top system without dice and while it works for character stats, once you start playing you either need something akin to analytic geometry for the individual skill systems, or you end up with a situation where the skill check is nothing more then a yes/no system. Either you have a jack of all trades character, or you just end up failing every skill check for the entire adventure. You cant make specialized character in that situation because no adventure is going to take place in a single specialization, in fact, as happens most times, you simply end up with a useless character for the majority of play, which is just no fun at all and as a DM, I pity any person stuck in such a position. On the inverse, say we let everyone know what the adventure will focus on before hand, everyone specifically designs their characters for that adventure and we all end up walking gods, which as ive demonstrated on here, is only fun for a very short time.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 28, 2015, 01:00:58 AM
I don't think it'd involve much resetting but more so evolutions.  I'd think the basic margin of effect a character can have upon an outcome will not be so much as to completely outclass a vanilla in any scenario but merely give it an edge.  I don't think it's going to be a question so much of constant skill checks like in an actual rpg campaign, but rather occasional application of formula using the pertinent skill rating as it applies to execution of actual rules, not simply progress within a story line.

As in happening upon a locked door and rolling a skill check to pick it.  I don't think that's the sort of rpg aspect we are getting in to.  As I'm envisioning it at this point anyways.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 28, 2015, 04:55:20 PM
Ok, then help me out. I have no idea what you are envisioning for a game then. I mean, it really sounds like all you guys want to do is write storylines... which really isnt a game, its writing a cooperative book. You want a table-top RPG but with no RPG aspects, you want character sheets, but for them really not to mean anything, you dont want fleets and combat, but everyone is working toward some goal. Guys im lost. I have no idea what it is you are trying to do with this?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 28, 2015, 06:06:52 PM

  That's not at all the sum of it.  Basically by RPG elements it means there will be Character Unit usage extensively to affect otherwise vanilla units on a battle field.  A primary character of each player would be subject to the Influence dynamics we discussed.  Part of the basis of "improving" or evolving your forces and their abilities will be maintaining and gaining Influence.  There would be regular units, but there would be Support Characters that can be embedded in Vanilla Units to make them more effective and have special traits.

  All generally speaking of course.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on March 28, 2015, 07:31:10 PM
Im still lost as to what we are trying to build, but that did clear up some of the confusion, thank you.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on March 28, 2015, 10:18:37 PM
 It's a sim, but with more emphasis on using characters to play a role than before.  And instead of by characters meaning just some abstract non game essential element that is present in stories, it would have Character Units of sorts that are used to make plays besides upfront combat.  These Character Units are the elements that will have RPGish type aspects/traits to them that will in turn affect regular combat.

So kind of in general, a player would have a base Main Character.  A Main Character is likely a individual with some form of pull amidst a given sect/faction, as in Fringe elements, Rebels or Imperials, or perhaps local elements as well I suppose even.  This Main Character would be subject to Influence like we talked about earlier being the basis of growth and achievement in the game.   Ideally, besides affecting your own Influence, you can negatively impact other peoples.  So there will be this effort to not only build yourself but try and pull the other down as well.  So everything you do all together is with the aim of your Influence basically.  Besides this Main Char, you'd have Support Chars.  The support Chars you can have in terms of number and such would be affected by your Influence likely, along with the overall strength of Forces who would be loyal to or serving under you.  Support Chars could operate independently in some contexts, or be embedded with your normal units to help improve them.

Example being, a Rebel Main Char might be a Commander with a Frigate.  A support character to him might be an Ace pilot that could be put with a flight of fighters to improve it, or a heavy weapons demolitions expert that could be put with a regular infantry squad to make them stronger, or even a hero sort of figure you could embed with any sort of unit etc.  So in theory, you could choose to only field "vanilla" units with no Support Chars behind them, and use up all your Influence this way.  But also in theory the game would be geared towards the favor of Support Chars use being irresistable.  Likely you'd be able to Improve not only your Main Character but your Support Characters as well.  So it would pay off to invest in already "Recruited" Support Characters in some aspects instead of just say recruiting more and more of them.

So the use of Support Chars as actual Units of sorts helps fuel a story thematic aspect to the game all together, even if there weren't a ton of writing going on.  If there were, even better.  But I think most anyone who would put the time in to play is going to give names to their Support Chararcters and develop a whole little narrative at minimum.  I know myself would be inclined to be making up Support Characters that fill actual story roles for a Group type deal I might want to do. Etc. There could be other Support Chars as well, such as Diplomats to help garner favor with npc local worlds perhaps or quell uprisings.  Spies, Saboteurs perhaps to be used to their implied purposes.  But to force interaction and purpose, Support Chars could often be used against one another.  Such as if a Reb is deploying a Inciter to an Imperial Garrisoned world to try and spawn local Uprisings, the Imperial player would want to deploy a Diplomat to the world to try and balance the effect out.  Maybe Bounty Hunter Chars used to hunt down others, etc.  All just a basis to build on.
 

So in a way, there will be aspects of Traditional Simming with an overall management process of a whole roster of resources etc, instead of simply territorial conquest over a vast area we flavor it up with more personality to the whole objective of gameplay.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on March 29, 2015, 02:14:32 PM
The best way to think about it is this:

Old Simming Management/Scale = 1 Command Ship, 3 Support Ships, 36 Auxiliary Craft, 72 Starfighters

New Proposed Management/Scale = 1 Command Character, 1~5 Support Characters, 0~100 Ground Troops, 1 SF Squadron, 1~3 Auxilary Craft

The idea is that support characters are going to be experts and specialists. You can customize your strike force to be geared towards space assault, smuggling, and dogfighting by loading it with Wedge Antilles or Han Solo types, or lean towards a more balanced disposition. Presumably, if you put a support character into an X-Wing, that X-Wing will be able to take on 4 TIE Fighters all by itself. If you decide to run with a normal X-Wing with a "standard" pilot, it would likely only be able to take out 2 TIE Fighters.

If we used a fixed asset management system, this would prevent players from relying upon an endless amount of cheap units to whittle down more expensive ones. The Imperial Player may have more TIE Fighters at his disposal, but that does not make them disposable.

The Rebel Player will only have a Nebulon-B to work with in terms of units, and so thinking about how you can fully utilize a single frigate over an extended period of time will force players to use what limited resources they have more effectively. Sending in 3 or 4 X-Wings to defend some Transports while the rest of the squadron is allocated elsewhere in the Sector is the kind of game I'm thinking about. But if those 4 X-Wings get KIA'd during a convoy defense mission, that's going to be a permanent loss until replacements arrive from HQ, which could take 1 Week per X-Wing, or whatever replacement system we come up with.

It will be similar with the Imperial Player, only with VSD instead. The Imp may have more units and more firepower upfront, but overall quality of those units and access to badass support characters (like bounty hunters) will be more limited, since the Imperial War Machine regards COs who don't get the job done using TIE Fighters and Stormtroopers as failures.

Slightly different dynamics for either side, but hopefully it's something that'll be worth it. It may be tempting simply to play as the Empire because you have more firepower, but the Rebel Player can simply have multiple SF/AUX groups be in different places at the same time, rather than consolidated and constantly moving from mission to mission. I think it'll work itself out. The intention is that the NEB and VSD will be utilized rarely, and most of the action will revolve around dogfights and small-scale ground battles.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on April 02, 2015, 12:04:49 PM
I know its been quiet, but things are getting developed right now privately. I think, from a conceptual standpoint, there could be enough for a little "show and tell" demo by the end of the month. The demo will likely consist of a CRAK + 6 TIE Fighters vs CORV + 4 X-Wings + 2 Y-Wings, as this will be representative of the scale and size of combat for management purposes. I know participation and interest is low right now, but we hope this can be a game where both hyperactive and hypoactive players can have a place in the story.

Something to consider: would you guys be more interested in starting out as a lone TIE Pilot who works his way up the ranks and becomes a VSD commander and beyond, or would you rather start out as a VSD commander and expand your power from there?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on April 02, 2015, 02:32:32 PM
I... dont know how to answer that, Hale. I still havnt been told what you guys are doing with combat yet. If we are talking a single Tie Fighter per person, I cant possibly see this using a standard sim combat format. I mean, seriously what can you do with a single tie fighter?

If we are using a non-standard format, then I dont know enough about it to answer the question one way or the other.

And if we are basically just doing an SL thing, where we make a post, use a bunch of big, fancy oxford words and a bunch of stuff miraculously dies, I... I mean dont take this as me telling you not to do it, but I really cant emphasize for you how much im not interested in doing that kind of simming. And if this is what you are looking at, just let me know now so I go back to being a lurker and stop suggesting changes to what you are trying to do.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on April 02, 2015, 03:46:38 PM
  "would you guys be more interested in starting out as a lone TIE Pilot who works his way up the ranks"

 
   For sake of specificity I have zero desire to do anything with a TIE ;).

   More broadly, I'm not opposed to concept of lower starting points for players Main Characters, but, I am highly in favor of the general system on track for now which makes use of multiple characters/character groups, dispersed at times or together at times as necessity/ability dictates.  I just wouldn't want to see that part infringed for sake of a more ground level start point for players.


   My espousal for multiple character usage as units of a sort like this is because I think if we are all sticking to one specific main character lower on a rank/influence scale, we are further limited with the types of characters that are under that Main Chars umbrella of plausible companions to an extent.  Who is hanging out with a TIE Pilot besides his wingmen?  Not to say it's all so typecast and flat, but simply to illustrate the occupational distance between characters we might come up with.

   I suppose if we are talking about a genuine GROUP/set/team of characters for one player, but just overall the rank/influence type of chars a player can use being limited to more entry command levels at beginning, then it more or less plays out the same.

   I would still have some slight concern that a lack of enough diversity amongst the types of forces each player has leads to a lack of as much confrontation as there would be otherwise though.  Of course, that is also solved somewhat with shrinking playing field even further.

   But I mean ultimately, who is a TIE pilot fighting besides Rebel pilots in his ship?  Unless he crashes somewhere and is pursued by some Rebel Guerillas, but then where is the skill set he's drawing on as a TIE Pilot in the wilderness tracked by Rebels?  Makes for a good story but probably not so much of a balanced playable game.  Definitely sounds treading much closer to dedicated RPG of sorts, unless I misinterpreting which can occur  :D
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on April 02, 2015, 06:46:38 PM
  If you want to fly a TIE and get shot down and have me track your ass like Rambo.  That could be a sweet Character Adventure based game  ;D


  I'd even make it Endor and be Ewoks.  8-)
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on April 02, 2015, 07:09:55 PM
Quote
Ramano: I still havnt been told what you guys are doing with combat yet.

Quote
Hale:The demo will likely consist of a CRAK + 6 TIE Fighters vs CORV + 4 X-Wings + 2 Y-Wings, as this will be representative of the scale and size of combat for management purposes.

But with a hex grid, weapon ranges, and a brand-spanking new Fire Control system to replace the Universal Combat Rating system.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: Ramano on April 02, 2015, 08:19:15 PM
But... didnt you just ask if we wanted to be piloting a single tie fighter? See, a CRAK and assorted fighters vs a Corv and assorted fighters, ok, yeah it would be small but yeah that would work under a normal combat sim format.

But a single tie fighter? Please excuse my minor freak out here but... WTF kind of combat you planning on having with single tie fighters!?!? Thats not going to work in any format ive ever seen outside of storyline only. So thats either something new, so I cant really speak on what I think for ship usage until I see what you came up with, or you are planning an SL Only sim, which im just not interested in.

Quote
GCW Hale: Something to consider: would you guys be more interested in starting out as a lone TIE Pilot who works his way up the ranks and becomes a VSD commander and beyond, or would you rather start out as a VSD commander and expand your power from there?
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on April 22, 2015, 02:09:19 AM
GALACTIC CIVIL WAR: THE LOST CAMPAIGNS

MOCK BATTLE/GAME DEMONSTRATION
In this demo of a Battle Mission, we will begin with a Rebel Strike Group, consisting of 3 X-Wings versus 4 TIE Fighters. Rebels will exit hyperspace first and begin the Battle with their initial Movement Phase. We will cycle through 2 rounds just so you understand how everything works.

Planet Grid:
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/LOG2_zpslrku7jh6.png)

Phases of Mission
1. Selection Phase -- Players select which units they want to send on a mission. Once those units are selected, units enter hyperspace for their destination.

2. Deployment Phase -- Units exit hyperspace at their destination. Depending on the mission (Battle, Diplomacy, Transport, Recon, etc.) the next phases might be different, but for now, this is just going to demo a Battle Mission.

3. Movement Phase -- Players take turns moving units. The player who initiated the Mission always goes first.

4. Combat Phase -- Players take turns shooting weapons. If no vessels are in weapons range, then it is possible for the Combat Phase to skip.

5. Resolution Phase -- Damage and effects from combat are resolved.

6. Next Round -- Players repeat Movement, Combat, and Resolution until the Mission is over.

7. Completion Phase -- Results from the Mission are resolved (experience, etc.).

IN PRACTICE, here's how it will look:
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy185/americanhero1984/phaserounds_zpsw0j1ozxr.png)

--------------------------------------------------
(SELECTED) BATTLE RULES

PILOT
Pilots earn 1 Experience Point by scoring 1 Kill or completing 1 Mission. They add +1 AR/DR to the vessel they are piloting for each Level. Squadron Leader Bonus: All other starfighters in the same formation of an Elite Pilot get +1 AR/DR, if Legendary +3 AR/DR. Experienced Pilots can be requisitioned from High Command at a cost of 5 KC x EXP Level (example: Veteran Pilots cost 25 KC).
(Level 0) Junior - 0 EXP
(Level 1) Rookie -- 1 EXP
(Level 2) Veteran -- 5 EXP
(Level 3) Ace -- 10 EXP
(Level 4) Elite -- 30 EXP
(Level 5) Legendary -- 50 EXP


STARFIGHTER FORMATIONS
Attack Pattern ALPHA -- Lead Starfighter gets +2 AR/DR, Flanking Starfighters get -2 DR. Lead Starfighter may deflect all incoming damage to Flanking Starfighters.
Flight Pattern BETA -- Default formation for all starfighters. No added bonuses or capabilities. Starfighter groups unable to form any other formation automatically revert to Beta.
Defense Pattern GAMMA -- Lead Starfighter gets -1 AR/DR, Flanking Starfighters get +1 AR/DR. Flanking Starfighters may deflect all incoming damage to the Lead Starfighter.
Attack Pattern DELTA -- Lead Starfighter gets -2 AR/DR. Following Starfighters get +2 AR.
Flight Pattern OMEGA -- Front/Top Starfighters get +1 AR. Rear/Bottom Starfighters get +1 DR. TIE SFs may use this formation regardless of how big or small the SF Flight Group is (minimum 2, maximum 6). All other SF Flight Groups must have 4 SFs in this Formation at all times or they revert to other formations.

R2 ASTROMECH (Cost: 10 KC per Level)
(Level 1) Optimize Performance -- During the Movement Phase, this unit can tweak the systems of its host starfighter for either Attack (+1 AR/-1 DR) or Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). These changes are permanent until the next Movement Phase.
(Level 2) Damage Control -- During the Movement Phase, this unit automatically recharges 1 Shield Point and repairs 1 Armor Point of its host starfighter (not to exceed limits).
(Level 3) Navicomputer Assistance -- During the Deployment Phase, this unit enables its host starfighter to exit hyperspace 2 grid spaces into a system beyond Deep Space Zones.
(Level 4) HOLONET Module -- This astromech has a built in HOLONET transceiver for storyline purposes.
(Level 5) Advanced Systems -- Penalty for Optimize Performance is ignored, bonus is doubled. Damage Control is doubled.

UNIVERSAL COMBAT RATING
SF/AUX CAR = (Base AR) - (Fire Control)
SF/AUX DR = (Speed) + (Maneuver)
CAP CAR: (Weapon TR) - (Distance) - (Fire Control)
CAP DR: (Speed) + (Maneuver)

TARGETING RATING = Missile (8), Laser (7), Ion (6), Torpedo (6), Turbolaser (5), Rocket (4), Bomb (3)
FIRE CONTROL = Subtract (Attacker's Size - Defender's Size) only when bigger units are attacking smaller ones.
UCR ACCURACY RATING = (Attack Rating)/(Defense Rating) = Weapon Accuracy % (Round to nearest whole number)

Accuracy Ratings might impact units differently depending on the number of weapons they have. For instance, when firing 4 Laser Cannons, a minimum of 25% Accuracy is needed to score 1 Hit, 50% for 2 Hits, 75% for 3 Hits, and 100% for 4 Hits. If a unit has 49%, then unfortunately, only 1 Hit is scored. Double Fire capability effectively increases the amount of shots, and so more hits might be scored.

----------------------------------------------------

T-65/A X-WING (ASSAULT)
Size/Class: (2) Light SF
Length: 13 meters
Cost: 50 KC
Hyperdrive: Yes
Astromech: Yes
Pilots: 1
Speed: 2
Maneuver: 4
Shields: 13
Armor: 13
Attack Rating: 6
Defense Rating: 6
Weapons:
4 Laser Cannons (Range: Close, Damage: 1)
2 Proton Torpedoes [8 PTs] (Range: Close, Damage: 8)
Capabilities:
Attack Run -- During the Movement Phase, if the Targeting Computer is switched ON, this unit can begin an attack run on a single capital ship by suffering a -2 DR penalty but gaining a +2 AR bonus. During the Combat Phase, up to 100% of ordinance can be launched at this target. Lasers Cannons cannot be used against this target.
Torpedo Strike -- During the Combat Phase, if the targeting computer is switched ON, this unit may fire up to 2 Proton Torpedoes against starfighters and auxiliary craft.
Full Throttle -- This unit may close its S-Foils during the Movement Phase in order to gain a +1 Speed and +1 Maneuver bonus (and as a result, +2 DR). If so, Laser Cannons become offline (and may not be used for rerouting energy).
Recharge Shields -- During the Movement Phase, this unit may take 1 Laser Cannon offline in order to recharge Shields by 1 Point. It may increase this by reducing Speed and Maneuver by -1 (each) in order to recharge Shields an additional 1 Point. Only a maximum of 5 Points can be recharged if this is done, and as a result of reduced engine energy, -2 DR.
Boost Weapons -- During the Movement Phase, this unit may reroute 1 Point of Shield energy into 1 Laser Cannon in order to increase its damage by +1 Point. This can be done up to 4 times (once for each Laser Cannon).
Targeting Computer -- During the Movement Phase, the Pilot may switch the Targeting Computer ON in order to enhance targeting capabilities. If so, this unit gets +1 AR but -1 DR as a result of the Pilot focusing more on targeting than maneuvering.
Ejection Pod -- During the Resolution Phase, if this unit blows up, the Pilot may eject and await pickup in Deep Space.


TIE/LN-1 FIGHTER (STRIKE)
Size/Class: (1) Small SF
Length: 6 meters
Cost: 22 KC
Hyperdrive: No
Astromech: No
Pilots: 1
Speed: 2
Maneuver: 6
Shields: 0
Armor: 9
Attack Rating: 4
Defense Rating: 8
Weapons:
2 SFS Laser Cannons (Range: Close, Damage: 2, Bonus: Double Fire)
Capabilities:
Short Range Fighter -- During the Movement Phase, this unit cannot move beyond 3 grid spaces of its mothership or Defense Zones (X-grids). During the Combat Phase, if this unit is in the same grid as its mothership, it gets +1 AR.

----------------------------------------------------

REBEL STRIKE GROUP "FLAME SQUADRON"
Formation: ALPHA
Lead Starfighter: Flame 1
Following Starfighters: Flame 2 + Flame 3

FLAME 1 (T-65/A X-Wing w/ Elite Pilot + Level 3 R2)
Size: 2 --- Speed: 2 --- Shields: [13/13] --- Armor: [13/13]
Attack Rating: 6 +4 (Elite Pilot) +2 (Alpha Formation) = 12
Defense Rating: 6 +4 (Elite Pilot) +2 (Alpha Formation) = 12
Weapons: 4 Laser Cannons, 2 Proton Torpedo Launchers [8/8 PTs]

FLAME 2 (T-65/A X-Wing w/ Junior Pilot + Level 1 R2)
Size: 2 --- Speed: 2 --- Shields: [13/13] --- Armor: [13/13]
Attack Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Defense Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Weapons: 4 Laser Cannons, 2 Proton Torpedo Launchers [8/8 PTs]

FLAME 3 (T-65/A X-Wing w/ Junior Pilot + Level 1 R2)
Size: 2 --- Speed: 2 --- Shields: [13/13] --- Armor: [13/13]
Attack Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Defense Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Weapons: 4 Laser Cannons, 2 Proton Torpedo Launchers [8/8 PTs]

----------------------------------------------------------------

IMPERIAL PATROL "BLACKHAWK SQUADRON"
Formation: OMEGA
Top Starfighters: Blackhawk 1 + Blackhawk 2
Bottom Starfighters: Blackhawk 3 + Blackhawk 4

BLACKHAWK 1 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 6
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) = 9
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

BLACKHAWK 2 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 6
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) = 9
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

BLACKHAWK 3 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) = 5
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 10
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

BLACKHAWK 4 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) = 5
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 10
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

--------------------------------------------------------

(ROUND 1)

REBEL DEPLOYMENT PHASE
1. Flame Squadron exits hyperspace in Deep Space Zone 1.

REBEL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. Flame Squadron moves to C-1.
2. Flame 1 uses R2 to Optimize Performance for Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). Targeting Computer is switched ON (+1 AR/-1 DR).
3. Flame 2 uses R2 to Optimize Performance for Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). Targeting Computer is switched ON (+1 AR/-1 DR).
4. Flame 3 uses R2 to Optimize Performance for Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). Targeting computer is switched ON (+1 AR/-1 DR).

Updated Status:
1. FLAME 1, AR: 12 / DR: 12
2. FLAME 2, AR: 5 / DR: 5
3. FLAME 3, AR: 5 / DR: 5

----------------------------------------------

(ROUND 1)

IMPERIAL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. Blackhawk Squadron moves to C-1.

IMPERIAL COMBAT PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 6/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

2. BLACKHAWK 2 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 6/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

3. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 5/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

4. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 5/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

Updated Status:
1. BLACKHAWK 1, AR: 6 / DR: 9
2. BLACKHAWK 2, AR: 6 / DR: 9
3. BLACKHAWK 3, AR: 5 / DR: 10
4. BLACKHAWK 4, AR: 5 / DR: 10

------------------------------------------------

(ROUND 1)

REBEL COMBAT PHASE
1. FLAME 1 attacks BLACKHAWK 1.
a. FC: 12-1 = AR 11. UCR: 11/9 = 100% Accuracy
b. 4/4 Laser Cannon shots hit for 4 Damage.
c. 1/1 Proton Torpedoe shot hits for 8 Damage.

2. FLAME 2 attacks BLACKHAWK 2.
a. FC: 5-1 = AR 4. UCR: 4/9 = 44% Accuracy
b. 1/4 Laser Cannon shots hit for 1 Damage.

3. FLAME 3 attacks BLACKHAWK 2.
a. FC: 5-1 = AR 4. UCR: 4/9 = 44% Accuracy
b. 1/4 Laser Cannon shots hit for 1 Damage.

REBEL RESOLUTION PHASE
1. FLAME 1, no damage.
2. FLAME 2 takes 32 Damage and blows up. Pilot ejects (Pod in Deep Space Zone 1).
3. FLAME 3, no damage.

Updated Status:
1. FLAME 1, AR: 12 / DR: 12, -1 PT [7/8]
2. FLAME 2, DONE.
3. FLAME 3, AR: 5 / DR: 5

----------------------------------------------------

IMPERIAL RESOLUTION PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 1 blows up.
2. BLACKHAWK 2 takes 2 damage. [Armor: 7/9]
3. BLACKHAWK 3, no damage.

IMPERIAL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK SQUADRON remains in C-1.
2. Formation remains constant (Omega).

-------------------------------------------------------

REBEL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. FLAME SQUADRON remains in C-1.
2. Formation reverts to BETA.
2. FLAME 1 closes S-Foils (Lasers OFF, +2 DR).

Updated Status:
1. FLAME 1, AR: 10 / DR: 12, [PT: 7/8], S-FOILS: CLOSED, TARCOMP: ON
2. FLAME 2, DONE.
3. FLAME 3, AR: 7 / DR: 7, S-FOILS: OPEN, TARCOMP: ON, [Shields: 13/13] [Armor: 13/13]


REBEL COMBAT PHASE
1. FLAME 1 attacks BLACKHAWK 2.
a. FC: 10-1 = AR 10. UCR: 10/9 = 100% Accuracy
b. 1/1 Proton Torpedoes hit for 8 Damage.

3. FLAME 3 attacks BLACKHAWK 3.
a. FC: 7-1 = AR 6. UCR: 6/10 = 60% Accuracy
b. 2/4 Laser Cannons hit for 2 Damage.
c. 1/2 Proton Torpedoes hit for 8 Damage.

-------------------------------------------------------------

IMPERIAL COMBAT PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 2 attacks FLAME 3.
a. UCR: 6/7 = 86% Accuracy.
b. 3/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 6 Damage.

2. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 3.
a. UCR: 6/7 = 86% Accuracy.
b. 3/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 6 Damage.

3. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 3.
a. UCR: 6/7 = 86% Accuracy.
b. 3/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 6 Damage.


IMPERIAL RESOLUTION PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 2 takes 8 Damage and blows up.
2. BLACKHAWK 3 takes 10 Damage and blows up.

Updated Status:
1. BLACKHAWK 1, DONE.
2. BLACKHAWK 2, DONE.
3. BLACKHAWK 3, DONE.
4. BLACKHAWK 4, AR: 5 / DR: 10

--------------------------------------------------------------
END OF DEMO!!
-------------------------------------------------------------

So, the rules and specs aren't 100% final, but this should give you a general idea of how combat in general is going to work.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on April 27, 2015, 11:26:01 PM
Bumping this for comments.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hoppus on May 01, 2015, 08:43:44 AM
From my own corner that looks neat but is way too involved.

The hex grid is too complicated to use virtually, IMO. I just can't wrap my brain on it, and finding the grid spaces and how they line up is too difficult. If it were a visual board game it'd be different.

That being said, I can't see myself doing anything beyond storylining in the near future. :P I'm loaded between work, home and teething baby.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on May 01, 2015, 11:45:49 AM
Understood. The direction I think we're going with future gaming on this forum is resembling that of tabletop game systems and RPGs. It is perhaps, too complex. We are all used to writing single posts that handle everything from movement to combat, and so breaking it down into Phases might have the appearance of more work because it looks like more posts, but the amount of work per post is actually reduced. Yet, if we simply wanted to resurrect GCW II, which imho strikes the best balance between simplicity and macro management, we probably would have done this by now. What's popular right now with the kids are the tabletops and RPGs, and so simply out of necessity to engage that market - we have to consider alternative models of simming which we may not be accustomed to.

I personally think the idea of a lone Rebel CO building up a cell network, adding more SFs to his garage, and working with CORVs and GR-75s sounds like a more exciting direction to pursue than building massive fleets spanning multiple systems. Articulating that smaller scale I think demands complexity, because if we used standard specs and rules to resolve engagements like 3 X-Wings vs 4 TIE Fighters, both the process and the results wouldn't be satisfying.

As compelling of a case I may present to this forum to go in this smaller and more complicated direction, it is in the eyes of the beholder. There is an equally compelling case to simply say "we're all busy with life, so let's just wait until Episode VII comes out and build a new sim around that". I can see that.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Eidolon on May 02, 2015, 11:09:42 PM
 It looks like a lot because it's a whole sequence all in one post when it would ordinarily be in probably 4 posts, 2 each player involved. give or take 1 here and there perhaps.  But really it'd be merely a manner of adjusting to a new progression dynamic as opposed to an All In One Post set up for each player per turn.

  I hear you on your time.  And the layered complexity perception could be simplified I think with more of a visual marking system like .jpg/.gif 'cards' so to speak for units with color coded value sets.  eventually you unconsciously become programmed to know the colors relevant subject.  A simplified grid presentation perhaps with pure hexs, terrain diff on ground grids.

  This current system is geared towards the ability to build up from small scale to modestly large though, it could perhaps benefit from being reduced to considering only small scale and even still less 'factional' focus to a more strict character focus.  Whenever we get to writing a small group tends to eventually form, sustainment of it I think for some of us is general interest/dedication which has to be somehow tied to a friendly competitive system of mutually affected gains and detractions.  Even a basic ability to sort of 'duel' on a character level in some aspect.  Or narrowing scope to a near 'character group/orbit' atmosphere even.  Even closer to rpg than simming itself, but simpler character bases and evolution paths.  Gains through story used for currency to heighten character traits within a class perhaps.

   Awaiting other communal input if any perhaps before too much assessment.  Again everything is fluid.
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on May 03, 2015, 10:35:05 PM
0
Title: Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
Post by: SWSF Hale on May 23, 2016, 10:09:51 PM
I would encourage you guys to review this thread. It contains a lot of conversations we've had over the last year in regards to "the next game."


SO, revisting an idea from 2 years ago was the "Composite Fleet" system of management. EVERYTHING was lumped together, and the fleets would literally exchange fire as 1 unit.

With that system, and the current Option B specs, here's what it would look like:

Imperial Fleet
UCR: 4.14 (average of CAPs)
DUR: 1826
AR: 472
24 Turbolasers (240)
6 Ion Cannons (48)
8 Laser Cannons (40)
14 Starfighters (96)
10 Auxiliaries (48)

Republic Fleet
UCR: 4.42
DUR: 1771
AR: 502
14 Turbolasers (140)
8 Ion Cannons (64)
6 Laser Cannons (30)
12 Starfighters (192)
12 Auxiliaries (76)

IMP attacks REP, 474 x [4.14 / 4.42] = 443 DMG
REP attacks IMP, 502 x [4.42 / 4.14] = 535 DMG

Imperial Fleet will survive 4 rounds.
Republic Fleet will survive 5 rounds.

Republic Fleet wins, but must sacrifice 4 ships of his choice due to attrition.
Imperial Fleet lost, but must sacrifice 5 ships.

So there you go. If you want Ultra Macro and you want to take the fun out of it, just use the Fleet Composite system! =)