GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!

[SWSF Eidolon]

Separate note/probing, what's with your personal aversion to Die Hale?  Burned on the craps table once too often? 

But seriously.  There is no parallel for adding chance to outcome in a game of the nature we all pursue.  I'm not saying we can't do a cool game without them as we always have before, I'm saying why aren't we now that we can?  If it's related to altering rolls, doesn't the page automatically flag that for us?  We simply deem any such post illegal and levy a penalty without any exception whatsoever.  We could keep die rolls in a sep thread from story posts perhaps to help that editing need conflict..

Even in the simplest context dude, if you want something to have a 50/50 chance of going one way, perhaps detection, or deciding order of battle or something, you make it a coin flip and roll a 2 sided die.  Just saying they have some great worth we should keep in mind going forward for some application.

[Ramano]

Ok I think I might be a bit confused here. What are we doing? Is this a table-top RPG style game like the character sheets Hale posted, or is this a combat sim, or... yeah im lost now.

[Ramano]

And while this may be a first in history, im inclined to agree with Eid. A dice system just sounds more interesting. Its a change from the normal run of things, and as Eid says, it adds that element of chance that just doesnt exist otherwise. It doesnt matter if you have a giant weapons platform with 300 cannons if after you roll, 75% of the shots miss. You could even add a critical hit system with that. Like with the X-Wing Mini's game, roll so high and the shot causes additional damage or effects. Again like Eid said, there is just so much we can do with a dice system, simple things that would add so much to the game.

However, and we know its going to come up at some point so we might as well hash it out now, if we plan to use a dice rolling system, we are going to need an on-forum dice roller with unmodifiable script. Lets face it, unless we are rolling in a chatroom with witnesses, can you really be sure when someone gets that 1 perfect roll in a crunch situation? Let me run a scenario through for you: Im in a situation where im basically at a single attack left to live. My ship is beat to hell, and the picture is beyond grim. So I make one last ditch attack and (yes im just making stuff up for dice but bare with me) I need a 10 or higher for my weapons to hit you, 19 or higher for crit. I roll and hit 19 20 20 20 19 19. (Yeah yeah, I know, but it is technically possible) All critical hits and when the critical multipliers are added in, now you die and by a miracle I am able to escape. Now knowing me for however many years now, without SEEING that roll with your own eyes, would you ever, in a million years believe I rolled it? Yeah, lets be realistic here, lol. So with that scenario in mind, how do we deal with that issue?

[SWSF Hale]

This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 10d20 : 14, 14, 11, 6, 6, 19, 10, 6, 17, 11, total 114

Rolled 10d20 : 8, 18, 11, 10, 9, 13, 18, 17, 17, 4, total 125

[SWSF Hale]

The problem with using the dice rolling function, is that I can preview the dice roll results, and if I don't like them, I can delete the script, re-preview my post to clear the cache, and then re-roll the dice until I get the results I want.

I'm not burnt out on dice, it's just that they don't work when there isn't a witness.

[Ramano]

Well, depending on how much work a GM wanted to do, there is technically a way to fix that. Basically it would hugely slow the game down, but we could have it that during a combat post, the player makes a post then makes a time to get together with the GM in the chat to roll all the dice. That or perhaps is there a way to link the dice roller button to the post button? That way when you roll, it rolls and automatically sends the post, that way the post is up and there is no way to modify it then.

[SWSF Hale]

Exactly. Too slow or too much work to create a work-around. We may not like a currency-based system, but sometimes that kind of linear game helps the game function in ways dice don't or cant.

For example, it would work like this (using specs already posted on this thread):

X-Wing
Type: Heavy SF
Cost:
Production:
Length: 13 meters
Hyperdrive: x1
UCR: 6
Durability: 26
Attack Rating: 4
Warheads: 6 PTs (+3 AR)
Capabilities:
Hit and Fade -- After making any attack, this unit can make an immediate hyper-escape to avoid return fire.

We would give "Energy Points" to units. For those with long-term memory, we did this in Aburik. Let's say, everybody gets 100 points, but how you use them depends on what that unit can do. For example:

Basic Attack (50): Unit fires guns at target in range, deals damage according to attack rating.
Heavy Attack (70): Unit fires guns and warheads at target in range, deals damage according to attack rating.
Defensive Maneuver (40): +1 UCR this round when defending from an attack.
Offensive Maneuver (50): +1 UCR when attacking.
Special Capabilities (100): Perform any action listed under "capabilities" for a unit.

If we keep things really limited like this, that's my vision of what the game could be. Specs can always be tweaked. But, we keep everthing scenario based, use the Seswenna Sector Campaign that we have going on right now for our background story.

I also envision a hybrid game. We SL 70% of the time, and only bust out the grids and the units to decide outcomes of major conflicts. That way we can take the time to set up each scenario as its own thing, as opposed to using cookie-cutter grids and units like we've done before.

[Ramano]

Well, its not so much that im opposed to a points based system, its just one of those things where its the same old system with a new coat of paint. Just another 3rd grade math class with more storyline. I mean, if im alone in this line of thinking someone please tell me, but the whole appeal of this is that it could be something we've never had before. If this is going to be just another standard combat model, im not saying I wont help or play, but its really going to diminish my interest in it. Basically the difference in <Yeah, what do you guys need from me. I want to do this.> to <Well, if you need me to keep the game active, i'll play...>

That and I just dont think we should be so quick to want to abandon the dice system. There has to be an easy way to do this, we just arnt employing the proper brain energy to it. Lets explore this a bit before we just toss it to the wind. I mean, ultimately you guys do what you will. And maybe we find out that its just not going to work with dice no matter what, but I think having the dice will have more people wanting to check it out then we will on another simple combat sim.

[SWSF Hale]

The trick is developing a game we can play on these boards. As I've mentioned before in other threads, the market is saturated with Star Wars gaming to the extent that any game we think of that can be played here... a better version exists in real life. So yes, dice work. No arguments about that.

Check out this website:

http://roll20.net/

[SWSF Eidolon]

The problem with using the dice rolling function, is that I can preview the dice roll results, and if I don't like them, I can delete the script, re-preview my post to clear the cache, and then re-roll the dice until I get the results I want.

     Not that the concern isn't legitimate but I for one am of the opinion that anyone who would cheat is only cheating themselves and would be willing to leave it at that.  If a person is going to cheat they will cheat whether dice script altering is possible or not, I think the concept goes beyond simply cheating and in to good sportsmanship.  I think it's safe to presume anyone who is going to partake  is partaking from a place of love of the community/story aspect of the game and not to simply win at any cost.

     I think the goals/agenda of the game could be structured as such to help get away from any carnal motivations for that as well.  If we are looking at something more Story/RPG/Character driven, then we aren't talking about large scale territory and resource conquest, we don't need to be bothered with constructions and stock piling and such, it all becomes part of a story mechanic.

    Some rolls, perhaps outside of combat when affecting characters ability to "level" or improve and such could possibly be handled by a GM as well.  Could also consider GM handling combat rolls, but I think that removes some level of hands on feel for players




    Another thought is a decoder system that is revealed only after each roll.  In this way, even if a player chooses to look at die face values with preview before posting, he won't know for sure what the values will translate in to until the GM decodes it with a decoding roll. Basically it'd go something like as follows. . .


1) establish 2-3 set legends/keys for decoding rolls. . .
 
1 = hit  2 = hit  3 = miss  4 = miss  5 = action  6 = action
1 = miss  2 = miss  3 = action  4 = action  5 = hit  6 = hit
1 = action  2 = action  3 = hit  4 = hit  5 = miss  6 = miss


2) a player is attacking something with something else. . .

player elects to attack with something that uses 3 attack dice, so his roll would look like this. .

Rolled 3d6 : 3, 2, 6, total 11

   but even if he sneaks a peek, who knows which of the 3 decoding legends will be applied.

3) after a player rolls, a GM makes a decoding roll immediately after that simply arbitrarily chooses which key to choose 1-3 . . .

Rolled 1d3 : 3, total 3

[SWSF Eidolon]

As I've mentioned before in other threads, the market is saturated with Star Wars gaming

  Our Class Action lawsuit against FFG is a separate thread.   


  The Threaded Forum system is obsolete to table topping only in visuals and obsolete to IRL RPG groups in no way imo.

  But I mean we can skip talk of how the mechancis of the game will go until we decide what we want to game to be can't we?

  So what do we want it to be?


 

[SWSF Eidolon]

    Another thought is a decoder system that is revealed only after each roll.  In this way, even if a player chooses to look at die face values with preview before posting, he won't know for sure what the values will translate in to until the GM decodes it with a decoding roll. Basically it'd go something like as follows. . .


1) establish 2-3 set legends/keys for decoding rolls. . .
 
1 = hit  2 = hit  3 = miss  4 = miss  5 = action  6 = action
1 = miss  2 = miss  3 = action  4 = action  5 = hit  6 = hit
1 = action  2 = action  3 = hit  4 = hit  5 = miss  6 = miss


2) a player is attacking something with something else. . .

player elects to attack with something that uses 3 attack dice, so his roll would look like this. .

This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 3d6 : 3, 2, 6, total 11

   but even if he sneaks a peek, who knows which of the 3 decoding legends will be applied.

3) after a player rolls, a GM makes a decoding roll immediately after that simply arbitrarily chooses which key to choose 1-3 . . .

This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 1d3 : 3, total 3

   So the decoder roll picked Key #3.  Comparing to original attack roll, he got a hit a miss and an action. An average offensive roll.  The miss is just a miss, the hit is a hit, and the action could be used to do something.

   This is just filler talk, whatever the numbers trnalste to, hits, actions whatev to be figured later and plugged in.

[Ramano]

Actually, going along with Eid's idea, but simplifying it even more, is there a way to show hidden values on the dice roller until the post is sent? Like have it show up like a password in the post while making it. So say we rolled 3d6 it would say Ramano rolled 3 6-sided dice: *, *, *. Then have it to where those then turn into values once the post button is clicked. That literally cant be more then 1 line of code, lol.

[SWSF Eidolon]

only prob with that Ram is Greg/Hop is our Admin Web-e Duder and he just had a baby, sure he will chime in eventually though on the possibility, but then someone could hurry and delete a post.  As I said all in all I am willing to trust whoever plays not to be a douche.  But I recognize the need overall to protect the integrity of any game with controls as well.



I agree with Ram in that the idea of "something new" dice brings us a desirable element as well.

But like I said, this all pertains to exactly "WHAT" it is we are doing.  Let us each state plainly some ideas.


I'd like to see a character driven rpg sim really.  If larger battles occur, I'd imagine the engagements we have to be more key moments or supporting aspects of that battle, in a way acting out scenes of the overall grand landscape which is skewed by the outcome of our 'dueling' of sorts I guess you could say?  At any rate, I'd hope for it to be something that is directed by character ambition and story than a resource conquest dynamic.  Even leveled character aspects allowing more, access as it were in story.  Of course we could all play out whatever angle we wanted, be it an Armada Admiral or a Saboteur or a Smuggler.  But the game of numerical improvements would revolve more around improving a character(s)/groups standing or ability than a faction building more warships and gaining more revenue.

Of course that all revolves around some mutually agreeable story concept where we begin with some form of balanced competitive nature.

[Ramano]

Well, I dont so much care what we do with the story aspect, I can play into anything. The hardest part about SLing is learning the subject matter. Once you know what we all know about star wars, the story just comes naturally. So I mean, do what you want with the story. Im more interested in the technical aspects.

Like one thing I would really like to see is no more of these static vehicles. I mean, of course we would have base stats for all the ships for PDF and major faction dealings, but as far as for us on the small localized scale, I think we should have templates instead of just base ships. In actual star wars, only the empire really had specific vessel designs. The rebellion for example, many of their capital ships were old luxury liners outfitted with extra shield generators and turbolasers. The first generation rebel assault frigates were old Hutt luxury transports fitted with as many weapon emplacements as they could squeeze onto them. The MC-80s were nothing more then a bunch of modules all fitted together, and could be changed around to fit a variety of purposes. Probably the best example there could ever be, the Millennium Falcon, was a heavily modified TY-2400 freighter. Originally those dont even come with guns. So I think it would be interesting to play off that concept with the game.

Another thing is we need to keep the game extremely limited in scale. Make it small enough so that people HAVE to interact with each other and not just "well, lets sit here and pray upon the thousands of unaligned planets until we build up huge fleets" and the game is basically nothing for months on end then there is 1 battle and both sides are crippled for the next 3-6 months again. Like pick a spot with 8 or 10 planets, I dont even care how its politically aligned, and lets just focus there. Like the rest of the universe doesnt even exist as far as we are concerned. Everything we do only takes place in this 1 little corner.

Also, to address the hurry up and delete option, we already have systems in place to handle that. We make all post locked by the moderator upon submission. Thus the only way it can be edited is with approval. That way if you have minor tweaks and typos to fix, someone has already looked at the post first so we know what the rolls were.