Poll

In all seriousness, do you want to...

play a combat-oriented game for GCWIII?
4 (66.7%)
OR an SL-driven game using the GCWIII sandbox?
2 (33.3%)
OR an SL-driven game, where units are provided free of charge but major battles are decided via some combat-oriented mechanism?
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!  (Read 159592 times)

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #165 on: March 06, 2015, 06:48:37 PM »


  Hey, whats our name?

  Galactic Civil War - The Lost Campaigns?
  Galactic Civil War - Confrontation?
  Galactic Civil War - Influence & Injury?
  Galactic Civil War - The Sesweena Campaign (simply using GCW and new name for each successive campaign?)
  Galactic Civil War - Tactics? ;p


~J
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #166 on: March 06, 2015, 06:58:13 PM »
This took about 30 minutes to build in PowerPoint, after scouring the internet for top-view pictures of SW vessels. It was easy.

My overall vision for this game...


this battle I would hope to see as a climax.  I like the set up generally though.  Spacing is decent, it could stand to be one space larger (as on long row = 6 instead of 5 and adjust to 3x3).  If this is like a big battle, then smaller battles will still have room to move.  I think the space on a grid should be considered just a parcel of space, not respresenting an entire system or anything like that.  It's just a field upon which to measure some tactical differences for us in combat, not a representation of the total story concept of the local area. Although in some instances I suppose we could work them in to have a planet peaking in several corners of a grid etc?

 also of course we at some point need atmosphere flying battles and ground as well.  but should try and stick to same grid template for all.

treating fighters in flights like that will be good, the 3v4 count of Imp/Reb helps keep the numerical issue in check and to canon ideals.  We could treat the flights as taking damage to only one ship at a time then more conceivably than doing so with full squads of 12 together.  Can also easily make charts for any unit abilities/stats that are columned off for strength of the squad/flight...100/66/33 in case of rebs.  100/75/50/25 in case of Imps.  Just side thought that sprang up. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 07:00:49 PM by Eidolon »
~J
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #167 on: March 06, 2015, 07:03:18 PM »
Well that's the thing, with a dedicated Maneuver/Movement Phase, players take turns positioning their units based on initiative and speed.
This is a place where specs are going to require more work, as in, some units might have the ability to move last even if they won the initiative check.

Suppose for that posted picture, Movement initiative went like this:
1. Missiles-in-flight
2. Torpedoes-in-flight
3. TIE Fighters
4. X-Wings
5. YT-1300
6. TIE Bombers
7. CORVs
8. Y-Wings
9. ISD

Weapons initiative could be the reverse:
1. ISD
2. Y-Wings
3. CORVs
4. TIE Bombers
5. YT-1300
6. X-Wings
7. TIE Fighters
8. Launched Torpedoes
9. Launched Missiles

By flip-flopping the order of initiative for fire and movement, it gives the faster units preference for maneuvering and the slower units preference for shooting. In reality, a CORV could not move-fire-move without also getting into the weapons range of the ISD and taking some hits. The best way for the CORVs to win would be to constantly run circles around the ISD so only 1 CORV would be in a firing arc at any given time.

  I think the units that move first though are at more of a disadvantage.  Especially when it would come to choosing actions if that were the system opted for.  Because of that, moving first should also fire first to make up for moving without less of a picture of the field.  The unit that moves last is somewhat in the best postion because it is moving after having seen what everythign else did. ISD gets to move last and fire first, that is too much benefit.  It acts after everything so knows exactly what it needs to do to accomplish its goals, then it gets privilege of leveling something first.  Especially for that ship.

  So you flip it from round to round for the players.  But keeping it so players can arbitrarily choose which unit to activate/move first makes it simpler than establishing a set scheme for OoB of units doesn't it?  Just thinking out loud is all.
~J
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #168 on: March 06, 2015, 08:46:51 PM »

Example


Reb Forces
1 CRV
1 YW Flight
1 XW Flight  +Ace Squad Leader (1 Free Action to friendly squad within range 2, 1 Free Evade for Own Squad)

Imp Forces
1 VSD
2 TF Flights


   Reb player wins a flip for first initiative and moves first.

   Chooses his XWs (thinking they are most versatile, move them first because they can fare better in most any development than the other ships).  Since he moved them first, and they already have 1 free Evade from the Ace Pilot, he chooses to Focus them (can be used for offense or defense).

   Imp player chooses 1 TF Flight.  Moves them.  They have 1 Passive Evade at all times inherently being TIEs.  As a baseline ship (like XWs will be for rebs) they have Focus ability as well as Active Evade so must choose between those two for the action.  They choose another active Evade.

   Reb Player chooses CRV moves it.  As a heavier ship of the Alliance, the CRV has some bite to it and maneuverability as well.  It can either Concentrate Fire, Boost Engines (a mod effect?!), Coordinate (boost another friendly), or some other shit.  It chooses to Concentrate Fire, so come it's attack phase gets some kind of offensive bonus.

  Imp player chooses his other TF Flight and moves them.  Does the same and commits to an Active Evade for it's action.

   Reb Player takes final unit YWs and moves them.  They are assault type craft I figure.  Their abilities are Focus and Target Lock.  They choose Target Lock on the VSD (having assumed to moved in to range of it).

   Imp player chooses his VSD and moves it.  For his action he chooses to deploy another (let's say his last) Flight of TFs.  They cannot action this round or move any further.  Only attack (a bonus to moving and deploying perhaps?).


   Move phase is over.  We would chart the movements on the grid, maybe note the actions next to them post it and move to combat phase.


   Combat Phase

   Reb player had to move first without knowing where everyting else would be come attack time, so they get to attack first as well.  He chooses XWs who opt to engage one of the TF Squads.  They are at a distance yet so it is an initial pass on each other more or less.  We could rate fighters in categories of Attack perhaps- Strafing, Dogfighting, Assault.  So until arrival of AWings, XW would be Rebs best Dogfighter.  TFs would obviously be a grade above.  So Rebs would have to some degree also rely on improving with pilots maybe?  This would encourage any one who was a Reb Commander character to take a Squad Leader Support character.  Programming some forced dynamics in to rules and shit. (im getting wwaaay off track here) So the XWs are in Strafing category of Attack right now, they have the edge on the TFs (until they are in same grid space which is when Dogfighting would be used?).  This now forces ships to move around, instead of remaining static.  They have some value, let's call it 5 for the time being and TFs of 4, so full damage would be dealt.  So they'd deal 5 damage to the TFs unresolved.  They had Focused, so they could use the Focus to add +1 to their Attack.  But instead they save it to add -1 to any incoming.

   Imp Player now gets to attack.  Chooses VSD.  VSD attacks the CRV.  It's a general Turbolaser Attack (maybe it has like 4 basic Attack types for diff weapons).  Being an offensive weapon laiden powerhouse lets say it can attack twice, so it's second attack is Concussion Missile Attack on the YWs.  Say VSDs Maneuver vs CRV is 2/4.  50% of it's max damage for the TL attack is dealt.  Lets say 25pts.  Say the CM attack has it's own Maneuver rating vs YWs, which is 3/5, so 60% damage is dealt to them. lets say 12pts.  All unresolved yet, pending Action outcomes if any (unless we just work resolutions in to the combat phase which is possible, just presuming nothing is destroyed until the whole combat phase has run and the next round begins) anywyas..

   Reb Player now chooses the YWs.  They are definitely taking some good damage from VSD, so before the Imp player can use his other TFs to possible disrupt the assault ships, he's going to get their Attack off.  (we build in some Abort Attack rule for Rebel fighters with Hyperdrive maybe?  Reflecting nature of Rebellions tactics, if they are taking too much damage they can abort their attack and escape to Hyperspace? perhaps at an Influence Penalty for whoever deployed them?).  The YWs use their Assault value vs the VSD.  The Maneuvers are 5/2 (we know these values from established previous values in this Combat round), so it's 100%.  The Assault value of YWs lets say is 10.  They have a target lock remember, which come resolution multiplies final damage by 2 lets say.

   Imp Player now chooses TF1.  They attack XW.  Units are in strafing/jousting face off so the values are 4/5 we know from when the XWs attacked them.  So TFs will deal 80% strafing/joust face off damage.  4*0.8 = 3.2 (we establish rounding regulations, i say .5 round down, .6 up).  TFs will deal 3pts of unresolved dmg to XWs (XWs dealt 5.  5 vs 3 pts dmg.  Somewhat balanced so far)

   Reb Player now chooses CRV. CRV has concentrated fire so is preparing to attack the VSD.  Attacks VSD with its most powerful Turbolaser Attack.  + Concentrated Fire, which lets say equals x2 all pre-resolved damage.  CRVs does full 100% dmg because it's Maneuver comparison is 100% (4/2).  Let's say 15pts.  x2 is 30pts.  unresolved.

   

   You get idea.  Sorry. I meant to only show how the OoB would go in that dynamic.  Got off in to specific rule dynamics.  Too far yet =)
~J
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Offline Ramano

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #169 on: March 06, 2015, 09:15:58 PM »
Does anyone else feel that whole system is really just setting us up for battles that are nothing more then an endless series of 1 sentence posts? I mean, these are wonderful idea's and I dont want to discourage further development, but you guys are setting up a system thats more intended for chatroom style combat. You are talking about each individual unit have to post a move, then post an action, then post an attack, then post damage. Thats gunna get monotonous real quick.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 09:24:00 PM by Ramano »

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #170 on: March 06, 2015, 09:26:16 PM »
Yeah, I think short battle posts are going to be the norm. This is actually a good thing: by doing less per post, players can actually commit more time overall to the battle. We can jump online in the morning while partaking in our coffee, during the lunch break, and then once at night. Whereas before, we'd be lucky if we get organized and have enough time to do a proper battle post with SL and tactics, etc.

If a typical Rebel force is 2 CORV + 6 X-Wings + 3 Y-Wings... then this shouldn't be a problem anyway.

Here is a big grid, more of what I had in mind.
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #171 on: March 06, 2015, 09:27:47 PM »
[]quote]Does anyone else feel that whole system is really just setting us up for battles that are nothing more then an endless series of 1 sentence posts? [/quote]

   As opposed to a compiled list of it done all at once?  What's the difference then?  The difference in phases at least changes the tactics of what you do first and what not at least imo.  The more we wire in Abilities and such.  The more the options on the field open up and the more variety you end up with.

   Example being the Abort Attack ability of Reb Fighters with HD.  If they find themselves in a unhealthy position too quickly they bust up.  At cost of influence to commander or something.

   All just vague tip of iceberg.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 09:30:10 PM by Eidolon »
~J
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Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #172 on: March 06, 2015, 09:29:44 PM »

  Hey, whats our name?

  Galactic Civil War - The Lost Campaigns?
  Galactic Civil War - Confrontation?
  Galactic Civil War - Influence & Injury?
  Galactic Civil War - The Sesweena Campaign (simply using GCW and new name for each successive campaign?)
  Galactic Civil War - Tactics? ;p

GCW: The Lost Campaigns is the accepted name for what our next game will be, because we are moving into a gray creative area where the new movies are basically going to rewrite canon.  Under the Lost Campaigns umbrella will be "The Seswenna Conflict" or whatever region of space we want to hold our story. We decided on Seswenna Sector a while back, so I think we should run with that first.
LUCIDIUS HALE
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #173 on: March 06, 2015, 09:31:28 PM »
Yeah, I think short battle posts are going to be the norm. This is actually a good thing: by doing less per post, players can actually commit more time overall to the battle. We can jump online in the morning while partaking in our coffee, during the lunch break, and then once at night. Whereas before, we'd be lucky if we get organized and have enough time to do a proper battle post with SL and tactics, etc.

exactomundo
~J
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Offline Ramano

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #174 on: March 06, 2015, 09:37:09 PM »
Well no, I mean I get what youre saying. Im just pointing out this is what combat is going to look like.

Reb X-wing group moves (1 post)
Imp T/F group moves (1 post)
Reb X-wing 2 group moves (1 post)
Imp T/B group moves (1 post)
Reb CRV 1 moves (1 post)
Reb CRV 2 moves (1 post)
Imp VSD moves (1 post)
Reb Y-Wing group moves (1 post)

Now assuming as you were talking you make a quick post before work, and I post promptly after, then you make another before you get home, I still post promptly after, you maybe make 1 more before bed... wash rinse repeat, then we are talking 3 days worth of posting and we havnt even gotten into weapons range yet. There is no way im going to be able to maintain interest in that and you would have patience unknown to mankind if you can.

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #175 on: March 06, 2015, 11:23:47 PM »
I hear you Ram, but is X-Wing Minis any different?
What we have going on right now on the drawing boards is the most complex battle sim we've attempted, so it's going to have to go through this development period before we figure out the kinks.

I suppose, we could entertain the possibility of a single move phase, where you move everything under your control.

Option B: Fire & Movement for individual units based on initiative. You do all the actions for a unit in a single post, and we take turns, like:
1. TIE Fighter moves to H-3, fires on X-Wings in H-2.
2. X-Wings fire on TIE Fighters, move to I-4.
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #176 on: March 06, 2015, 11:27:34 PM »
What we have going on right now on the drawing boards is the most complex battle sim we've attempted, so it's going to have to go through this development period before we figure out the kinks.

I suppose, we could entertain the possibility of a single move phase, where you move everything under your control.

Option B: Fire & Movement for individual units based on initiative. You do all the actions for a unit in a single post, and we take turns, like:
1. TIE Fighter moves to H-3, fires on X-Wings in H-2.
2. X-Wings fire on TIE Fighters, move to I-4.

  Those are good alternatives to consider as well.  All in all it is def just a matter of testing to figure what will work best for the flow and speed of progress/level of management we want to achieve while protecting tactical integrity of it all. 

   The All At Once thing I think is just definitely one of the sources of the work load we've experienced lately in association with trying to piece together a smooth game.  Changing it also breaks up the monotony of the usual routine.  At least for me.  The point of time consumption made earlier is very valid as well.  Doing a little at a time as opposed to all at once will definitely flush out better for development of a battle and I think to be honest do more to keep interest for the players cozy.

   And again thats only the battle aspect of the game.  There will need to be the numerous other mechanics affecting Influence and Character attributes playing roles and everything.

   Hale, could you post a pack of those top view icons on the forum so we can all grab and access them?  For final presentation and all we can bank all map markers in a specific thread for back up to copy and paste or something etc.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 11:37:36 PM by Eidolon »
~J
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Offline Ramano

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #177 on: March 06, 2015, 11:56:54 PM »
Time out, is there a way to use those little top view icons and grid as a drop and play system? Use them as ACTUAL miniatures? That would make individual unit movement way more viable all you are doing is moving a token on a battlegrid, then simply save the posts for any applicable actions or attacks. Possibility?

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #178 on: March 07, 2015, 12:03:47 AM »
There are not an exhaustive amount of top view images for everything Star Wars under the sun. It was easy to find an ISD, because ISDs (and starfighters) are famous, but for VSDs and below --- it's slim pickings. I know it would be nice to have a graphical presentation of everything, but the images just aren't out there.
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Offline Ramano

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Re: GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!
« Reply #179 on: March 07, 2015, 12:09:49 AM »
Does the size of the image matter, or can you fix them all to look like the ones you have currently?