GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!

[SWSF Eidolon]

All a great concept Hale and expression reflecting what I feel in general would make for a good diverse different fun game.

but my bottom line is this: I'm just really tired of commanding capital ship task forces.

 word



   I'm very much in tune with the concept of the actual game board battles we play out occupying a more focused part of a larger scene.  This would obviously apply to larger battle scapes.  There could be small skirmish conflicts that involved nothing more than character groups to begin with anyways even in overall story essence.  The concept of scheduled events that may be going on at certain points for players to make use of at discretion is something I think will really help drive progress and conflict.  The influence factor could come in to play with the small focused group of characters we as players are controlling and improving it.  A certain level of Influence perhaps gains a little bit larger of a force able to be weilded or perhaps some new upgrade in talent or skill or use for it.

   The character creation/use process then is tied easily directly to battle effect because it all centers around the core group of characters/small tight unit we use anyways

   I think the setting should still then be restricted in some sense to a sector, region, cluster or handful of star systems even.  When we pick a grid out to use then even, it's just a microcosm or fragment of a larger area.  If it's meant to be close quarters, with the unit size we are talking we can even easily make it a building with interior effects etc.  A ground battle might revolve around a key point with only a small amount of forces represented on the grid, by no means a reflection of the whole planet.

   Depending upon location use and time frame, if remote enough, forces could even be so sparse that platoons/companies is all you really see except in unusual climactic capacities.

[SWSF Hale]

Well for starters we're going to need to rethink this game as character-based rather than unit-based. We're going to need RPG style sheets and such. We can revisit my D100 template, or steal and modify another.

[SWSF Hoppus]

Sounds interesting. I'll be listening in... I like RPG approach to combat, versus hard math (even with UCR) a la vintage simming. The RPG approach just leaves more room to do things, rather than totaling up lasers.

[Ramano]

So in other words you guys want to play Spell-jammer. D&D in space. You know they already have systems set up to do this right? LMAO. If thats all you guys wanted why didnt you say so, I have every book ever made for D&D, including these.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Ur killin me Smalls.

[Ramano]

I think you misunderstood what I meant. What I was saying was, the systems are already in place for what you are talking about doing, thus you would only need to design the equipment and ships you plan on using.

[SWSF Hale]

Well, the templates are in place yes, but we need to modify it so there isn't any dice to create a new system.

[Ramano]

As a 30 year table-top RPG veteran I can tell you with absolute certainty, a table-top RPG will not work without dice. To equal out the randomized system it would involve so much math none of us would be able to figure it out. Ive had a few friends try to design a table-top system without dice and while it works for character stats, once you start playing you either need something akin to analytic geometry for the individual skill systems, or you end up with a situation where the skill check is nothing more then a yes/no system. Either you have a jack of all trades character, or you just end up failing every skill check for the entire adventure. You cant make specialized character in that situation because no adventure is going to take place in a single specialization, in fact, as happens most times, you simply end up with a useless character for the majority of play, which is just no fun at all and as a DM, I pity any person stuck in such a position. On the inverse, say we let everyone know what the adventure will focus on before hand, everyone specifically designs their characters for that adventure and we all end up walking gods, which as ive demonstrated on here, is only fun for a very short time.

[SWSF Eidolon]

I don't think it'd involve much resetting but more so evolutions.  I'd think the basic margin of effect a character can have upon an outcome will not be so much as to completely outclass a vanilla in any scenario but merely give it an edge.  I don't think it's going to be a question so much of constant skill checks like in an actual rpg campaign, but rather occasional application of formula using the pertinent skill rating as it applies to execution of actual rules, not simply progress within a story line.

As in happening upon a locked door and rolling a skill check to pick it.  I don't think that's the sort of rpg aspect we are getting in to.  As I'm envisioning it at this point anyways.

[Ramano]

Ok, then help me out. I have no idea what you are envisioning for a game then. I mean, it really sounds like all you guys want to do is write storylines... which really isnt a game, its writing a cooperative book. You want a table-top RPG but with no RPG aspects, you want character sheets, but for them really not to mean anything, you dont want fleets and combat, but everyone is working toward some goal. Guys im lost. I have no idea what it is you are trying to do with this?

[SWSF Eidolon]

  That's not at all the sum of it.  Basically by RPG elements it means there will be Character Unit usage extensively to affect otherwise vanilla units on a battle field.  A primary character of each player would be subject to the Influence dynamics we discussed.  Part of the basis of "improving" or evolving your forces and their abilities will be maintaining and gaining Influence.  There would be regular units, but there would be Support Characters that can be embedded in Vanilla Units to make them more effective and have special traits.

  All generally speaking of course.

[Ramano]

Im still lost as to what we are trying to build, but that did clear up some of the confusion, thank you.

[SWSF Eidolon]

 It's a sim, but with more emphasis on using characters to play a role than before.  And instead of by characters meaning just some abstract non game essential element that is present in stories, it would have Character Units of sorts that are used to make plays besides upfront combat.  These Character Units are the elements that will have RPGish type aspects/traits to them that will in turn affect regular combat.

So kind of in general, a player would have a base Main Character.  A Main Character is likely a individual with some form of pull amidst a given sect/faction, as in Fringe elements, Rebels or Imperials, or perhaps local elements as well I suppose even.  This Main Character would be subject to Influence like we talked about earlier being the basis of growth and achievement in the game.   Ideally, besides affecting your own Influence, you can negatively impact other peoples.  So there will be this effort to not only build yourself but try and pull the other down as well.  So everything you do all together is with the aim of your Influence basically.  Besides this Main Char, you'd have Support Chars.  The support Chars you can have in terms of number and such would be affected by your Influence likely, along with the overall strength of Forces who would be loyal to or serving under you.  Support Chars could operate independently in some contexts, or be embedded with your normal units to help improve them.

Example being, a Rebel Main Char might be a Commander with a Frigate.  A support character to him might be an Ace pilot that could be put with a flight of fighters to improve it, or a heavy weapons demolitions expert that could be put with a regular infantry squad to make them stronger, or even a hero sort of figure you could embed with any sort of unit etc.  So in theory, you could choose to only field "vanilla" units with no Support Chars behind them, and use up all your Influence this way.  But also in theory the game would be geared towards the favor of Support Chars use being irresistable.  Likely you'd be able to Improve not only your Main Character but your Support Characters as well.  So it would pay off to invest in already "Recruited" Support Characters in some aspects instead of just say recruiting more and more of them.

So the use of Support Chars as actual Units of sorts helps fuel a story thematic aspect to the game all together, even if there weren't a ton of writing going on.  If there were, even better.  But I think most anyone who would put the time in to play is going to give names to their Support Chararcters and develop a whole little narrative at minimum.  I know myself would be inclined to be making up Support Characters that fill actual story roles for a Group type deal I might want to do. Etc. There could be other Support Chars as well, such as Diplomats to help garner favor with npc local worlds perhaps or quell uprisings.  Spies, Saboteurs perhaps to be used to their implied purposes.  But to force interaction and purpose, Support Chars could often be used against one another.  Such as if a Reb is deploying a Inciter to an Imperial Garrisoned world to try and spawn local Uprisings, the Imperial player would want to deploy a Diplomat to the world to try and balance the effect out.  Maybe Bounty Hunter Chars used to hunt down others, etc.  All just a basis to build on.
 

So in a way, there will be aspects of Traditional Simming with an overall management process of a whole roster of resources etc, instead of simply territorial conquest over a vast area we flavor it up with more personality to the whole objective of gameplay.

[SWSF Hale]

The best way to think about it is this:

Old Simming Management/Scale = 1 Command Ship, 3 Support Ships, 36 Auxiliary Craft, 72 Starfighters

New Proposed Management/Scale = 1 Command Character, 1~5 Support Characters, 0~100 Ground Troops, 1 SF Squadron, 1~3 Auxilary Craft

The idea is that support characters are going to be experts and specialists. You can customize your strike force to be geared towards space assault, smuggling, and dogfighting by loading it with Wedge Antilles or Han Solo types, or lean towards a more balanced disposition. Presumably, if you put a support character into an X-Wing, that X-Wing will be able to take on 4 TIE Fighters all by itself. If you decide to run with a normal X-Wing with a "standard" pilot, it would likely only be able to take out 2 TIE Fighters.

If we used a fixed asset management system, this would prevent players from relying upon an endless amount of cheap units to whittle down more expensive ones. The Imperial Player may have more TIE Fighters at his disposal, but that does not make them disposable.

The Rebel Player will only have a Nebulon-B to work with in terms of units, and so thinking about how you can fully utilize a single frigate over an extended period of time will force players to use what limited resources they have more effectively. Sending in 3 or 4 X-Wings to defend some Transports while the rest of the squadron is allocated elsewhere in the Sector is the kind of game I'm thinking about. But if those 4 X-Wings get KIA'd during a convoy defense mission, that's going to be a permanent loss until replacements arrive from HQ, which could take 1 Week per X-Wing, or whatever replacement system we come up with.

It will be similar with the Imperial Player, only with VSD instead. The Imp may have more units and more firepower upfront, but overall quality of those units and access to badass support characters (like bounty hunters) will be more limited, since the Imperial War Machine regards COs who don't get the job done using TIE Fighters and Stormtroopers as failures.

Slightly different dynamics for either side, but hopefully it's something that'll be worth it. It may be tempting simply to play as the Empire because you have more firepower, but the Rebel Player can simply have multiple SF/AUX groups be in different places at the same time, rather than consolidated and constantly moving from mission to mission. I think it'll work itself out. The intention is that the NEB and VSD will be utilized rarely, and most of the action will revolve around dogfights and small-scale ground battles.

[SWSF Hale]

I know its been quiet, but things are getting developed right now privately. I think, from a conceptual standpoint, there could be enough for a little "show and tell" demo by the end of the month. The demo will likely consist of a CRAK + 6 TIE Fighters vs CORV + 4 X-Wings + 2 Y-Wings, as this will be representative of the scale and size of combat for management purposes. I know participation and interest is low right now, but we hope this can be a game where both hyperactive and hypoactive players can have a place in the story.

Something to consider: would you guys be more interested in starting out as a lone TIE Pilot who works his way up the ranks and becomes a VSD commander and beyond, or would you rather start out as a VSD commander and expand your power from there?