GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!

[Ramano]

Well enthusiasm for that idea faded fast, lol.

[SWSF Hale]

I'm doing some private testing of some ideas. I can't decide if our scale is too big.

[Ramano]

-makes a speech about transparency in government- lol

Well what you working on, perhaps I can help?

[SWSF Eidolon]

I can't decide if our scale is too big.

  it is 

[SWSF Hoppus]

See now we're getting into some next level web design/programming that is probably beyond Hop's level of expertise and time willingness.

Yep

Especially with 4 month old!

[SWSF Eidolon]

   So it's Level of Expertise then? 

[SWSF Eidolon]

I'm doing some private testing of some ideas. I can't decide if our scale is too big.

   Slightly different/added idea that may help slightly blend our conflict of scales/scope/doable...

        You take a given region of space, a sector, a handful of systems, an outback not totally charted area so we can discover or add stuff in etc.

        You add an ISD who is in the region to extend the Empire's influence and reign it in.


        You add a Rebel group whose basic goal is:  Destroying the ISD.


        So the game get's built around this ISD as the trophy piece basically.  Everythign the Empire faction/player(s) would do revovles around it.  It is their base of ops (maybe they can establish others, planetside etc).  We built it strong as hell, so it will take some tricks to actually ever destroy it.

        The Rebels get trash to start basically.  They have to build up, challenge the ISD.  Widdle away at it's support, find ways to sabotage it, etc.  Maybe strike team has to sneak on board, maybe there are skirmish battles, maybe the Rebs work up to a large offensive against it, and send in all they have in the region. . (a frigate, few corvs and fighters?)

    Anyway, basically the whole game is just designed around this simple concept.  Take an ISD, drop it in a region of space, and the Empire does it's thing and the Rebs do their thing.


    We stay away from TOTAL CONTROL dynamics where a player/faction completely controls a world or not at all, and get more specific with resources/improvements and such.  Management is more about managing your "Horde" so to speak, than managing your "Empire".

   Of course stick with all the RPG aspects we've been discussing.  And this doesn't alter the generals about combat being delved in to really.  Just a story background premise to frame a scope/scale.

[Ramano]

See, that idea feels very much like an old Lord of the Rings board game I had where the balance of it was absolute trash. It was basically the forces of Sauron had to destroy every vestige of the forces of good, and build a tower, and conquer specific cities to win, all the forces of good had to do to win was have victory in 3 random battles.

This feels the same way. The imps have to gain influence, kill the rebels, and what not else to achieve victory. All I have to do is kill an ISD, which as any simming vet knows, really isnt that difficult. It just seems like the game would last 1 economy period and be done. Posting board masturbation in essence, a lot of work for 2 weeks of gaming and very little pay off.

[SWSF Eidolon]

This feels the same way. The imps have to gain influence, kill the rebels, and what not else to achieve victory. All I have to do is kill an ISD, which as any simming vet knows, really isnt that difficult. It just seems like the game would last 1 economy period and be done. Posting board masturbation in essence, a lot of work for 2 weeks of gaming and very little pay off.

you are thinking along the lines of a basic normal sim style game we always play.  thats not what I was talking about. at any rate just tossing out concepts.

scaling will be an issue with the sort of games we seem to be aiming to incorporate.  imo the Sink the Bismarck mechanic makes for a very simple very easily designed contained game that helps the end of what we are shooting for.

[Ramano]

Oh and I agree with your points, I just dont agree with the idea of having the game with such an easily achievable win condition.

[SWSF Eidolon]

with such an easily achievable win condition.

well the idea would be that the Rebellion is in infancy and/or so limited logistically in the region that it's difficult for it to muster the force to simply confront the ISD in a sluggers space battle with mon cals or even a swarm of corvettes.

Basically the position an SSD would occupy in a traditional style sim, the ISD would occupy that here, except without all the associated empire micro management, and supplemental supporting armadas.  So there'd be no total faction representation or anything, it's just a remote/isolated theatre/campaign.

A small rebel cell maybe even plotting to strike a blow to the tyranny of the Empire by taking out one of it's mighty "unsinkable" Imperator class Star Destroyers.

Have to keep in mind we were looking to a more RPGish approach of build up with a tactical sim style combat of sorts.  So Rebels would be slinking around chasing some story concept that helps build up towards some actual tangible game mechanic point where they can either actually unleash some potent force (probably a bunch of fighters, freighters maybe a corvette, a frigate would be pinnacle for them and they'd have to work towards getting it a lot etc).

Things like that.

Maybe the Reb Cell starts out with just some fighters and handful of support ships.   Maybe one of the first "Missions" so to speak, is a replenishment frigate arriving in region to resupply the ISD.  Maybe the Rebels want to capture that ship.  At any rate, we heavily skew specs to this ISD is very very very hard to kill in the traditional sense.

we build in some rpg type mechanics where the ISD can be penetrated by strike teams, rich story environment type stuff.  maybe they can enact certain aspects that would hinder the ISD.  Like sabotage things.  For instance, maybe they can sabotage part of it's shielding somehow, so then there's more of a shot for an outright assault on it.

etc etc etc.  Just an idea in infancy to build on. 

But we incorporate character rpg rule type stuff in to it for building up abilities.  characters can be used primarily to improve how units behve on battle grid etc.  shit of such nature.


If/when the objective is achieved and the ISD were destroyed, well the games at a junction or end point.  We can build a new campaign with the rules/what we've learned etc.  No game lasts forever.

[Ramano]

Well, depending on how you do the rules, destroying an ISD is as simple as 2 squads of B-Wings and a frigate, lol.

I liked where you were going with right up until you got to the win conditions. I really like the influence idea. Like instead of controlling money or planets we simply control influence. Influence determines what you can field. I also like the extreme limited scope. I just cant get my head around that whole idea of you do this, game over. What if we dont want to stop playing then? What if the one person lost due to posting board glitches or inability to post? What if one of the players like me is smothering you with activity and in 2 weeks im set for my win condition and you guys are still working on your 2nd posts? Im just afraid of spending all this time and effort on a game that we finish faster then we designed it. I mean, with all due respect if I wanted to play a board game i'd just go play X-Wing. Im looking for a little more investment then a month worth of game.

[SWSF Eidolon]

  1) B Wings wouldn't be in the timeline.  Or available in that number based on premise anyways.
  2) A Frigate would be a feat for the infant Rebellion to come by
  3) It would last way longer than a month.  You wouldn't be able to Smother.  There'd be no dynamic where the person with the most amount of time to put in wins.  That's not how the game would work.  The ISD would be a behemoth man.  Scale scale scale.  We could use a timeline of before Yavin even.  So Xs would be new to Rebs.  Mon Cal wasn't even a thing yet for the Rebs.  They were secretive sneaking around trying to build some support and stay alive and subvert the Empire.  In the reality of this time period, even the dropping of an ISD would be a HUGE success for them. (the Death Star was a fluke aided only by Force and Jedi).  The region would be small, a sector, seswenna even if desired (though I'd prefer something else).  The Rebels would start out with like a core character group a squadron and a transport base, almost like in GCWI sort of scale.  Time to process events and achievements would prove that it takes a long time for Rebs to build up strength to confront ISD openly.  So they have to wage a diff kind of campaign, hence the RPG tilt as well.  Reb CO has to build influence in region, maybe he gets to a point and he can get another squadron of fighters. he's got 2 squads now, maybe he can launch an attack to try and capture a frigate.  we script in events like frigate replenishment  (in rules we date it even, example, 3rd Fri/Sat/Sun every month an Imperial resupply Frigate arrives at X Location.  Things of this nature.  Keep in mind- this is not your grand pappys sim construct, this is a sim/rpg hybrid as per our formulative discussions.

  4) It's more realistic of what we should expect to design a game with a finite concept for the time being.  We aren't looking to make the normal style game we always build, so the best thing to do is remain flexible without over stretching.   We can take what we learn from new concepts and phase structure and influence and character building concepts and grow on the next venture.  Possibly porting the characters and growth and such but who knows where itll all go.

[Ramano]

All wonderful ideas, and I think we should definitely run with them. I just think the win condition needs to be a little more complex then "Kill the ISD". If you recall, there was a reason we didnt use them in past sims even though they were available. When faced against a person putting together a speed fleet, the ISD loses every time. Its such a slow, lumbering, behemoth that you just do circles around it and park behind the thing, light it up like a christmas tree.

I think a far better idea would be to play stronger off the influence thing. Like we have to remove the others influence to win. That way if/when we kill an ISD the influence hit is crippling, but its not quite game over yet.

[SWSF Hale]

I think I got it. However, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to communicate this idea, so let me just go for it.

I like how Star Wars: Rogue Leader/Rogue Squadron basically revolved around the player taking control of a single vehicle or SF and completing objectives amidst a larger battlefield where background action was assumed to be going on (particularly the Battle of Hoth).

I also like how Star Wars: Battlefront also had a similar concept, but kept the focus more on ground battles.

I think, if we are going to have a discussion about scale, I personally think it would be really fun to create a single character that could be utilized in a myriad of battlefield and off-battlefield ways, and having that character pilot/command no more than a group of 3 starfighters, or a platoon of troops. Our characters would be Commanders/Captains basically. If we utilized this model, then we could really drill down on super-detailed specs and abilities, but minimizing the overall amount of units we need to keep track of during a typical combat post.

A scenario I envision could be a Medium Transport defense/Escape from Hoth... the player character takes command of an SF group, and must successfully destroy an incoming TIE Fighter squadron so that the GR-75 can make it to the hyperspace jump point.

By having recurring scenarios built into the sector we're using, players could bounce from system to system, picking fights where they can, but always forced into deciding between the greater good or the lesser of two evils (i.e. do they take a no-risk smuggle mission, or convoy defense mission?) The game needs to be structured like clockwork, such that, if you removed all players, certain events will happen no matter what that will determine the outcome of influence.

Those are just my initial thoughts thus far, but my bottom line is this: I'm just really tired of commanding capital ship task forces.