OOC: GCW Episode III Pre-Launch Discussion

[RanesDsane]

Going through and doing a bunch of math and came up with another question:

"GROUND FORCES
Every system can support a Defense Army with Command Points equal to the Industrial Output of the system. Ground units can consist of any support unit (infantry, vehicle, starfighter, or auxiliary), however, no more than 1 SF Squadron and 6 Auxiliary Craft per Hyperspace Route is permitted."

Does this limit include 'bonus' defense provided by facilities, or are those:  a) considered space based or b) above and beyond this limit?

[SWSF Hoppus]

GROUND FORCES
Every system can support a Defense Army with Command Points equal to the Industrial Output of the system. Ground units can consist of any support unit (infantry, vehicle, starfighter, or auxiliary), however, no more than 1 SF Squadron and 6 Auxiliary Craft per Hyperspace Route is permitted.

Does this limit include 'bonus' defense provided by facilities, or are those:  a) considered space based or b) above and beyond this limit?

The rule describes the default case, ie without facilities or special considerations. If a facility or feature permits additional SF/Aux numbers, those are ADDITIONAL to the default allowances (above and beyond the 1 Squad/6 Aux per Route limit).

All SF/Aux NOT part of a ship/platforms compliment are GROUND BASED. They are stationed on the surface of the planet.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Political Capitols used to be granted x6 IO for space defense, I see it's been changed to 5k.  That's terribly low and makes our bases be able to afford virtually nothing.   Most player fleets alone will be 2000CP above any one persons Political Capitol, hell even non political capitol worlds at x3 now if they had high KCs would have heavier space defenses. . .


Examples:

Hutta 5000KC

1 Golan III - 2500
1 Inkabunga - 1105

  this leaves 1400 to out fit them which is probably barely enough if even enough.

   no room for anything in 5k man.


  Kessel IO 1800 * 3 = 5400KC.

 
  My player fleet is 7000KC.  I could go in to Kessel and match it no prob, rightfully so Great dynamic, it just a strong ancillary system.  But to be able to stroll in to Nal Hutta at will as if it were ANYBODY elses capitol (provided their player fleet was off doing something, which we want everybodys to be!) is a bit harsh and undesirable dynamic from player standpoint




  I realize part of the problem is the potential for Super Fleets with the x6 IO when borrowing from your capitol, but still someone could drop a Administrator on Capitol and 5k becomes 10k and can create x6s out of x3s as is now, and there is y our s uper fleet there in this method anyways, but perhaps a way of compensating for that  is simply creating a maximum ceiling of borrowing power in CPs (like 3-5k maybe?) and cut out the range limitation (or make it bigger, 48-72hrs) for your support drawings from PDFs.  In reality, the ability to borrow ships from pdf in an unlimited supply based on SU availability (and go 24hr rng) takes some value out of building platforms for defense as well. . .you can't take them with you and they eat up CP all the same.  Almost makes plats near obsolete..

  Though with the current dynamics, you could take defense ships from other systems and spend the SUs to station them where you want within 24hr range which hopefully you'd have the logistical capability to do with your capitol, but then another system is literally BARE just for Capitol to be DECENT.  For players without consolidated beginning systems they are incredibly vulnerable to attack.  The basic xValue system leaves things quite sloped, for instance comparing what Nal Huttas totals to Korribans would be is possibly largest gap, but the strict 5k just purely ain't cutting it especially considering that it's an outright handicap for most peoples capitol system from what it would be if it were treated as every other in game system with a x3.  Please be so kind most gracious GM to cut us a little slack on the capitols!    There's nothing else we can sleep easy on in this tense game, and I LOVE THAT, but I'd like to know my sweet little muddy nest is safe =)  5k ain't buyin sheet

[SWSF Hale]

We're toying with a couple ideas right now regarding the level of Capitol Defense.

In trying to solve this problem, it became very clear that it was complicated, mainly from three key areas:
A) Making Capitols too beefy is it allows players to barrow an exorbitant amount of CPs from them.
B) Making Capitols "bastions" of military power makes them invincible.
C) Not all Capitols were created equal in terms of Industrial Output. Some - even with x6 - were barely scrapping by.

-- We don't like A because the potential for a 10k CP Player Fleet rolling on somebody else's Capitol is all too real.
-- We don't like B because we want Capitols to be vulnerable, thereby forcing players to stagger and tier their system defenses as to allow the Capitol to be properly defended (i.e. controlling any number of satellite systems within 24 hours of the Capitol as to facilitate Combat Support).
-- We don't like C because some Capitols (especially Nal Hutta) would become ridiculously overpowered in comparison to others.

5000 Command Points is plenty to work with, especially if you put an Administrator on your Capitol, thus increasing the allowance to 10,000 CP... which is more than enough to keep your Capitol safe, but not immune to a single player's attack. Don't underestimate the number of extra defenses planetary features and facilities can bring to the table either.

The extent to which CPs can be borrowed from your other systems for Combat Support will be detailed in the Combat Rules, as we are certainly concerned with the potential for players to abuse this feature and create monster fleets that can sweep Capitols single-handedly.

[RanesDsane]

I gotta agree with Eidilon, after trying to put together a PDF for my capital (who actually benefits from the 5k vs loses points), I found it very lacking.  I think they're far too vulnerable right now.  Granted, we haven't seen all the rules yet, but what about giving capitals a certain number of additional points for platforms only?  Platforms can't move, so they can't be put into a larger fleet, but it beefs up the capital some so they aren't completely vulnerable.  Say, 5k points of platforms, 5k of ships/fighters/aux, and KCx3 points of ground for capitals.  I think they'd still be plenty vulnerable, but at least they'd be somewhat stronger than a base player fleet (which can be 8k without PDF borrowing), but still assailable with some help from PDFs.

[Dementat]

Rane's nailed what I was going to suggest. Maybe a percentage CPs for additional stationary defenses could remedy the problem?

[SWSF Eidolon]

I very much like something in vein of Ranes suggestion.  You cant leave our capitols so stand alone awful and expect us to go out and do much conquering.  The flaw in Borrowing dynamic for Super Fleets exists still aside from tempering the Capitols, other systems are still all stand alone conquerable- but you end up with dozens of systems outthere stronger than capitols which neither fits reasonable expectations of "reality" and from my personal standpoint as a player is highly detrimental to fostering activity.

Overall its great all together just needs slight power tweeks, i think punishing capitol systems is bad way to tweek.

With 5k alone getting a comscan and holonet in is even going to be difficult (as its already going to be w any other mediocre system using the base x3).  Maybe something like for capitols free comscsn and holo, 1 free XQ1 OR XQ2 loaded up and 1 free heavy golan loaded then the 5k limit?  Just thoughts.

[SWSF Hoppus]

So making capitols near impossible to attack will stimulate activity? And giving capitols bonuses is punishing them because you want MORE bonuses still?

[SWSF Eidolon]

So making capitols near impossible to attack will stimulate activity? And giving capitols bonuses is punishing them because you want MORE bonuses still?

My capitol has no bonus.  It is penalized.  It's base IO would be 6825 based on the x3.  You want me to onyl be able to use 5k.  Thats an 1825 penalty, not a bonus.

What is the point of a Political Capitol if a regualr system you possess with 1800kc income or higher and outfit at x3 IO will have heavier ingrained defenses?  This will be the case with any person who's capitol system's base IO x3 total is larger than 5k, which is more than myself included.

The majority of my systems and ones i intend to annex will be linked within 24hrs, so myself, I'm not too bad or worried as PDF sharing (provided this isn't compeltely nixed or skewed to make capitols even weaker yet) allows me to boost my worlds immensely.  This is not even an argument I'm making for my individual case because my set up is juicy, it's for the dynamic and every player as a whole.

Capitols need to be good stand alone but the problem of this is the Admin ability which potentially doubles them (which you can turn any x3 to a x6 anyways as is even with nerfed caps), and the PDF borrowing which means you can borrow to make super fleets.  These two subjects can be addressed separately without beating capitols in to the ground as back water secondary defended worlds.

So even if you say that this is to address the issue of an unbeatable force, it's not addressing it.  Admins still allow unbeatable stand alone PDFs.

a basic 2400 world becomes 14400 while the highest any political capitol could go is 10000.  In this instance, Byss which is not a political capitol has a higher ingrained defense than Nal Hutta by almost 50%.  There are how many 2400 worlds?  2 or 3 I think.  Byss was not an option for me to select, it'd have gotten over ruled, but I'd have picked it based on numbers alone if I could had I known the dynamic would be changed to work like this.  I'm just syaing.  Leave some meat on the bone for the players please.  It just seems to me liek the wrong fix for the problem is being applied, and capitols are the only place suffering because of it, being left relying upon other worlds to defend itself, when it ought to be other way around.

This example isn't even factoring in the bonus facility units, capitols in terms of which generally don't have a lot of because all their start facils are the special or basics.  Again giving huge boosts to non capitol worlds.  With current dynamics my base defense at Vergs and Kessel are going to far out reach Nal Hutta.  And whats to stop me from buying up 3 leaders and making all three of them then x2 Space Defense.  Then I'll have Hutta at 10k, Kessel at 10800, and Vergs at 9000 + Major Shipyard Ship and more.

I got no problem with and encourage the concept of most worlds being attackable with a base player fleet, but a Political Capitol you should have to rally a bit more force than your normal player CP to go after.  All the other modifying and multiplier aspects create a hostile imbalanced environment for the 5k blanket limit at Capitols.  Unlimited PDf borrow ceiling must also be addressed to reign in max fleet projection potentials, even with 24hr rng. And the Admin Double Space Defense is GREAT in theory, but the proportions of it as it stands may be entirely too much.

[RanesDsane]

So making capitols near impossible to attack will stimulate activity? And giving capitols bonuses is punishing them because you want MORE bonuses still?

No, making them so vulnerable will discourage moving our main fleets out of them (or keep it very close) and, therefore, discourage activity. 

A Capitol should be hard to attack, it's the capitol.  Players can field 8000 CPs with a bit of effort, that leaves capitols far too easy to attack, even considering extra forces from facilities.  Consider also that nearby PDF fleets can be added to that attack fleet, increasing the attacking fleet beyond 8000 points.  That's probably enough forces to capture the world before a traveling fleet and/or nearby PDF units can respond.

Also, As pointed out, it is not a bonus to two capitols (Nal Hutta & Nar Shaddaa, and Thyferra).  Lets also put it into perspective, for me, it's a 500pt bonus.  Yeah, it's a bonus, but it's 1/9th additional of what I would have had without it.  Here's what I could do with 5k points:

Advanced ComScan Station	150pts
XQ-1 Interdiction Platform	625pts
XQ-2 Interdiction Platform	1200pts
Golan-II Space Defense Platform	1350pts
4x CloakShape Squadron	580pts	Assigned to Golan-II
12x Firespray-class Patrol Ship	204pts	Assigned to Golan-II
1x StarViper Squadron	189pts	Assigned to XQ-1
6x Firespray-class Patrol Ship	102pts	Assigned to XQ-1
2x StarViper Squadron	378pts	Assigned to XQ-2
12x Firespray-class Patrol Ship	204pts	Assigned to XQ-2

Take into account facilities, and I can add:
+1 Capital Ship up to 1000m
+2 Light SF Squadrons
+12 Light AUX

The ComScan is pretty much a requirement for a capitol.  3 Platforms don't even cover all 'quadrants' of attack.  Then fighters and Aux for the platforms....  That's pretty light, not even any room in the remaining 18 points for any kind of ship. 

Hence, going back to my recommendation of points for platforms only.  5k was an example, pick a number.  Say, enough for the ComScan, Holonet, and 4x loaded Golans.

Alternatively, look at the PDF platforms realistically.  A 2500pt Golan-III may as well not exist, really.  2/3 of the planets couldn't field the platform alone, much less put fighters on them.  Only 13 of the 72 planets we have could even minimally fit them (Tie Fighters, and your choice of one of the 14pt Auxes) for 3136 points...

Okay, now consider that putting one at our capitol (minimally fit, mind you) would leave us with less than 1900 points for other PDF...

The more I run the numbers, the more I worry that the KC=CP equation is flawed, particularly for PDFs.

[SWSF Hale]

The extent to which you can use CPs to temporarily boost your fleet will be taken care of in the combat rules, but for starters (just to quell this discussion):

1. Expect to pay higher maintenance premiums when PDF units leave their system for combat-related reasons during any Action Period.
2. Expect minimum PDF requirements that will have to remain in order for you to keep control of a system (this will also factor in how systems are conquered and when exactly an opposing faction gains control, because simply showing up and blowing up everything is only part of it). One does not simply abandon their ports. Modern naval powers on Earth don't even do that.
3. Expect Ground Combat to be costly to the point where attacking a Capitol just won't economically be feasible singlehandedly, let alone militarily feasible.

Again, don't underestimate the Administrator bonus as well as Defense Industry bonuses as well. By getting caught up with this "Capitols got nerfed to 5k" mentality, try looking at the bigger picture: it evens the playing field.  There are of course, a few systems in our galaxy that present unique challenges. Do I feel comfortable at Coruscant having Byss exactly at that 24 hour hyperspace range? Not in the least bit, but you can bet your ass I'm going to keep Coruscant safe at ALL times by NOT pulling units from it for offensive Combat Support.

But, I'll do CORUSCANT with an Administrator just to show you the extent of my defensive capabilities:

Coruscant
Bonus PDF: ISD Liberator
Space PDF: 5000 CP
Ground PDF: 2400 CP (limit: 4 SFs + 24 AUX)
Defense Industry PDF:
Basic Shipyard (1 capital ship up to 500 meters)
Light Plant (2 Light SF + 12 Light AUX)
Light Factory (30 Light GAVs)
Basic Grounds (250 Basic Squads)

Okay, so even if an attacking player rolled in there on Day 1 with a 10k CP Fleet, they'd have a pretty tough wall to crack - but certainly crackable. Even with my ISD Liberator bonus, Coruscant's space defenses could be easily overhwhelmed by a Sith Empire attack based from Byss.

Now let's throw in the Administrator:

Space PDF: 10k CP
Ground PDF: 4800 CP
Defense Industry PDF:
Basic Shipyard (2 capital ships up to 500 meters)
Robert Plant (4 Light SF + 24 Light AUX)
Light Factory (60 Light GAVs)
Basic Grounds (500 Basic Squads)

This is pretty close to invincibility in terms of the likelihood that any single player has in conquering Coruscant. Nevermind the fact that even though I have all of that extra room for bonus units, I'll still have to pay for them when that option becomes available. Nevermind the fact that somebody could attack a Capitol just to deal a lethal blow to their space defenses and then retreat... thus forcing that player to spend buckets of credits on repairing defenses.

Essentially, we're trying to create a system here where 1 player can take over any system by themselves, but 2 players would be needed to truly take over a Capitol. In the history of GCW, all the player vs player interactions were atypically 1v1... so we expect everybody to naturally form cooperatives or full-on alliances when the time comes for attacking high-end production systems, or even Capitols.

At this point I'm just going to have to ask you to trust the system and the rules FOR NOW and take a "wait and see" approach. We can put this game in developmental hell by slogging it out on the drawing boards all day long, so let's REVISIT this issue when the game is active and its clear through practice and observation over which rules are working and which are not.

Getting caught up with discussion over how unprotected Capitols are detracts from the main purpose of this game: Capitols can be just as vulnerable as every other system... all the Star Wars books routinely demonstrate that NO system is safe.

(Combat Note: Units in LOW ORBIT can attack adjacent units in ALL High Orbit grids).

[SWSF Eidolon]

What's with the bonus ISD at Coruscant? ;p

Is that a BONUS or is it sposed to represent your player fleet being there?  If we get a Bonus PDF heavy ship, that changes the base 5k limit dramatically.

[RanesDsane]

I'll hold off further debate until the combat rules are published, I just prefer to point out concerns before we have to figure out how to 'fix' something that is decided to be broken later with funds already spent and such.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Listen to me now, or listen to me later ;p

Also I need to know whats up with that Bonus ISD at Coruscant, I don't see any legitmate rules in place yet providing for it from either Facil Bonuses or Planet List traits, so unless you are factoring it in based on your Player Fleet CP, it seems it's just a gift to yourself, in which case, we're expecting gifts as well

[SWSF Hale]

ISD Liberator is there in an attempt to reconcile the transition of power between my character and the New Republic. Let's not forget that I built a Super Star Destroyer in GCWII as well. Just trying to "respect" Coruscant for being the "center of the political galaxy" by giving it a due bonus and as a nod to the SSD Lusankya that the NR acquired in the canon lore. It's limited in that: all the SFs and AUX I put on it will eat up my Command Points AND if destroyed I have to pay for it AND it can't go anywhere.

Darth Algoz also built the Death Star III in GCWII, and that hasn't gone anywhere either. It will rear its ugly head at some point. As the GM I have plenty of aces up my sleeve for potential Flashpoints... one them potentially being another Battle of Coruscant that'll wipe the ISD Liberator out.

So to answer your question: the ISD is there for story purposes. (Did you not read the NR tech page yet?)