Author Topic: OOC Chat  (Read 862441 times)

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1515 on: November 15, 2012, 07:25:57 AM »
Way more than that. Islam started in 500 AD if I'm not mistaken jews were around with the egyptians in 3000 BC and before that in a slightly different version of what it later became. It's one of the oldest if not THE oldest active religions.

I have a lot of reading to do I see...

Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1516 on: November 15, 2012, 08:15:26 AM »
Its all still a fight to see who has the better imaginary friend, lol.

Offline Dementat

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1517 on: November 15, 2012, 08:30:37 AM »
Be thankful some of us believe in that imaginary friend. If I was an atheist, there would be nothing stopping me from lining the streets with bodies. I am ONLY a good person because I believe there is a life after this and that my deeds in this one will impact the next. My beliefs keep me from becoming a monster.
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Offline Medivh

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1518 on: November 15, 2012, 08:34:10 AM »
Way more than that. Islam started in 500 AD if I'm not mistaken jews were around with the egyptians in 3000 BC and before that in a slightly different version of what it later became. It's one of the oldest if not THE oldest active religions.

I have a lot of reading to do I see...

Established Judaism began around 3000 years ago.  The exodus from Egypt was around 1300 BC (roughly the reign of Ramsese the II of Egypt).  The Israelites/Jews/Hebrews moved to the land of Canaan, a land that was controlled by various tribes, including the Phillistines), and lived as a nation of tribes until the first kings (Saul, David, Solomon) around 1000 BC. Solomon built the temple around 970 BC; the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonian Empire around 580 BC.    The Persians conquered the Babylonians and allowed the Jews to build the second temple around 500 BC.  Fast forward, the Romans conquer Judea around 60 BC.  The Jews revolted against the Romans about 60 CE, and as part of Rome's punishment, they destroyed the second temple, officially starting the "Roman Exile".  (They renamed Judea Philistia, after the ancient Philistines. The word Palestine is is derived from the word Philistine)

Jesus was (according to both Christian and Jewish scholars) born during Rome's rule (approximately the year 0).  Depending on who you ask, he was either a scholar, a carpenter, or a heretic.  He amassed a group of followers and was deemed dangerous, both by the established Jewish leadership, and by the Romans - hence he was put to death.  The early Christians, sometimes called Nazarites, continued to grow after Jesus' death.  As the Christians preached to more and more non-Jews, it became less and less considered an offshoot of Judaism and more of its own religion.  Because Christianity made Jesus a deity rather than just a prophet, Judaism began to look at it not just as heresy but as idolotry.  Christianity became firmly established around 300 CE, when Emperor Constantine of Rome made Christianity the national religion.  Rome being a vast Empire, that helped the religion take off much faster.  Under Constantine, the new testament was codified.

Islam was founded by Mohammad, who lived around 600 CE.  He was a trader, who, based on his line of work, and the geography he covered, interacted with many Jews and Christians, and (depending who you ask), developed a monotheistic religion based on them.  He preached this new religion in Mecca, where he was basically kicked out by the polytheistic people there, and went to Medina, where he amassed followers and eventually an army that was able to conquer Mecca and much of the Arabian peninsula.  Mohammad died around 630 CE, and that's when Islam began to split between Sunni and Shiite, based on the different beliefs as to who was meant to be his successor.  The Koran (I choose the easier spelling) was established during Mohammad's lifetime, and combined a slightly revised version of the story of Abraham and his sons, but incorporated the prophesies of both Judaism and Christianity, and indicated that Islam was the final word on the matter.

So
Jews - 1300 BCE (3300 years ago)
Christianity - 0-30 CE (2000 years ago)
Islam - 600 CE (1400 years ago)

All three monotheistic religions have had 'crusades'  The Jews conquered the land of Canaan in the name of G-d.  The Christian Crusades lasted hundreds of years, fighting to bring Christianity back to Judea/Palestine (not to mention infighting within Europe).  Muslims spread their religion through conquest when they initially conquered the middle east, and after some setbacks, are trying to do it again.

As for other religions, Buddhism was founded around 600 BCE, after Judaism but before Christianity.  Just for context.
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1519 on: November 15, 2012, 09:13:22 AM »
Its all still a fight to see who has the better imaginary friend, lol.

It's all the same "guy", just different interpretations from different points in time and prophets.

Allah and Yaweh are just names for the singular God.

Bishmillahi Rahman ah Rahim!


Med covered it nice and concise and accurate.  It's been one blood brawl after the other all around the table.  But HE LOVES YOU!
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Offline Medivh

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1520 on: November 15, 2012, 09:40:16 AM »
It's all the same "guy", just different interpretations from different points in time and prophets.

If you've ever read the series "A Song of Ice and Fire" (more commonly recognized by its HBO version "Game of Thrones"), it has a very interesting take on different religions and how they interplay.
There are the "Old Gods" of the North, a very earthy, pagan like religion, where people pray before a particularly rare tree.
There are the "New Gods" of the South, seven deities, worshiped with rituals that seem to parallel Christianity (they have septs that seem to be built much like cathedrals)
There is the "Drowned God" worshiped by the people of the iron islands
There is the "God of Light and Fire" - called Rhlorr, worshiped by the red priests and their followers

Each religion tends to treat the others with anywhere from disdain to outright hostility.

but then, there is the "Temple of the God of a Thousand Faces" - where the priests basically say all the gods, and all the religions, both past and present are really just different faces of the same god (hence the thousand faces), and it didn't matter how you worshiped him.
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Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1521 on: November 15, 2012, 09:44:46 AM »
Wow Dem, I never considered you less mentally stable then I am. Please excuse my next comment as I am unsure how to phrase it to be less offensive but, how weak of a mind do you have to possess that you need a god lording over you to be a decent human being? Without a god you have no reason to not be a murdering psychopath? If that is truly the case, you need to be institutionalized now before you go off the deep end and kill 35 people in a movie theater or something.

So my question to you is, why is a god necessary to be a decent individual? I still find time to help my fellow man and be a decent member of society and I firmly believe there is no such thing as god, and when you die you just simply cease to exist. As far as the universe is concerned, once your dead its like you never existed in the first place.

However, I do agree the bible is an important book. I consider it a set of guidelines on how to be a good human being. But thats all it is, a handbook, nothing more. There is no divine power behind it, there is no god watching over me, and heaven and hell are the creations of a weak mind trying to bring understanding to processes our primitive minds could never grasp. I also believe jesus christ was a real person and great man who did many great things, but thats all he was, a man. Nothing more, nothing less. What he's become now is what happens over 2000yrs of word of mouth communication. Like the telephone game you probably played back in grade school. You stand the entire class in a line and whisper something in the first kids ear, then listen to what it sounds like when it gets to the last person in line. Same concept.

Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1522 on: November 15, 2012, 09:50:21 AM »
And I beg to differ, not all religions are based on the same guy. As I said, the Hindu's worship an elephant carrying a basket.

And as I said, your god is a real being, but there is nothing magical or divine about it. Your god is an alien race that visited this planet thousands of years ago. And it was a plantation owner, not a savior.

The scarier part of it, we have become exactly what we were taught to be... so how violent must the species that enlightened us be? I just dont think our nukes are going to cut it against that.

Edit: You want a full rundown on my belief system, watch the movie Stargate. It follows my belief system to almost 98% accuracy. The only difference, I believe it was an entire species of alien, not just a single guy. Thus why all the early religions had many gods. 1 god to represent each alien caste. The government heads as close as I can equate it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 09:54:25 AM by Ramano »

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1523 on: November 15, 2012, 10:04:38 AM »
Be thankful some of us believe in that imaginary friend. If I was an atheist, there would be nothing stopping me from lining the streets with bodies. I am ONLY a good person because I believe there is a life after this and that my deeds in this one will impact the next. My beliefs keep me from becoming a monster.

doesn't that invalidate the value of any redemption you may have earned through subscription to belief in god?  Basically meaning that, good behavior/philanthropy from an atheist is worth more than that of a believer, because an atheist isn't motivated by divine favor/retribution, they are motivated by pure empathy alone

And I beg to differ, not all religions are based on the same guy. As I said, the Hindu's worship an elephant carrying a basket.

And as I said, your god is a real being, but there is nothing magical or divine about it. Your god is an alien race that visited this planet thousands of years ago. And it was a plantation owner, not a savior.

The scarier part of it, we have become exactly what we were taught to be... so how violent must the species that enlightened us be? I just dont think our nukes are going to cut it against that.

Edit: You want a full rundown on my belief system, watch the movie Stargate. It follows my belief system to almost 98% accuracy. The only difference, I believe it was an entire species of alien, not just a single guy. Thus why all the early religions had many gods. 1 god to represent each alien caste. The government heads as close as I can equate it.

That's a possibility but it is not religion, religion pertains to the deified and spiritual only, if you're saying that potentially the things people witnessed and wrote about that were put in a spiritual religions context, it's highly possible ancient peoples if they were visited by aliens or witnessed alien works, would perceive them as gods.  But it's no religion, no point in worshipping organic aliens.  People are of the Earth in my opinion, I've read Chariot of the Gods and such, interesting subjects but I read pretty much anything that has to do with any religion/religious theory out of pure recreational interest
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:07:32 AM by Eidolon »
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Offline Medivh

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1524 on: November 15, 2012, 10:06:00 AM »
Be thankful some of us believe in that imaginary friend. If I was an atheist, there would be nothing stopping me from lining the streets with bodies. I am ONLY a good person because I believe there is a life after this and that my deeds in this one will impact the next. My beliefs keep me from becoming a monster.

doesn't that invalidate the value of any redemption you may have earned through subscription to belief in god?  Basically meaning that, good behavior from an atheist is worth more than that of a believer, because an atheist isn't motivated by divine favor/retribution, they are motivated by pure empathy alone

Unless you believe that you can be redeemed as long as you do good things, even if for selfish reasons
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1525 on: November 15, 2012, 10:11:46 AM »
Unless you believe that you can be redeemed as long as you do good things, even if for selfish reasons

Then belief in Redemption is a Hall Pass, whether treated as such in the conscious or sub conscious, and is still more or less a "cover my ass" scheme.

It's like convicts being "saved".  Of course now that you're locked up with nothing to do but sit and think about how shitty you are you're going to turn to a system of beliefs that offers you a way out of seeing yourself in that light.

Redemption is the carrot in the stick.  If not for that, would most religious people be a part of their religion?  If all it consisted of was the dos and donts, and didn't include "Salvation/Redemption" ?  What if god had just said, yeah there's nothing in it for you other than maybe feeling good about yourself for the brief time you're around, but you should all be kind and gentle towards one another anyways.

That wouldn't work out.  Without there being some benefit to Divine Favor, no one would pursue it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:14:55 AM by Eidolon »
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Offline Medivh

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1526 on: November 15, 2012, 11:09:46 AM »

Redemption is the carrot in the stick.  If not for that, would most religious people be a part of their religion?  If all it consisted of was the dos and donts, and didn't include "Salvation/Redemption" ?  What if god had just said, yeah there's nothing in it for you other than maybe feeling good about yourself for the brief time you're around, but you should all be kind and gentle towards one another anyways.

That wouldn't work out.  Without there being some benefit to Divine Favor, no one would pursue it.

Remarkably, the Reformation movement did believe that.  It believed most people were automatically doomed to hell, except for a few who had the divine grace.  And for everyone else, well, maybe, if you worked, really, really, really hard and were really, really, really, really, really good - well, it might help a little bit.
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1527 on: November 15, 2012, 11:17:14 AM »

Offline Syren

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1528 on: November 15, 2012, 11:23:54 AM »
All things I do, I do for selfish reasons. Most people do. Altruism is dead and has been for quite some time. Everyone has a motive and an endgame, even those that claim selflessness want to be recognized for it. No one can say with absolute certainty if there is anything at all after we die. Belief is personal and should be an individual choice not a weapon to attack others with for not believing the same. I'm more of the mindset - I respect all beliefs as long as you don't annoy the shit out of me with it. I'm open to discussion because I think that kind of conversation is healthy and exciting but if your going to crucify me for being ethically questionable you can save it. Zealot looks good on no one.
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1529 on: November 15, 2012, 11:44:01 AM »
I agree that all motive when deconstructed to it's root is selfish, but that's putting human terms to what often amounts to survival which is a concept understood by all living things.

I wouldn't say people of true altruism do it for the recognition so much as for the high they get from knowing they've helped people, probably not even consciously, but the fulfillment is a real chemical pay back.  Sure some people do good for recognition, some people do good because it feels good.  Some do good out genuine concern for a broad greater future. Some don't do good, and like all motivation, for selfish reasons. Just much much more apparent and with general negative effect on others.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 11:47:35 AM by Eidolon »
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