Author Topic: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!  (Read 33381 times)

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« on: July 19, 2017, 03:25:44 PM »
Hey Guys,

As I have begun to plan my own units out and replace units I've realized that is a bit problematic to combine cost + length.

As the COST of units is based on their strengths (Damage Tolerance, Damage Out put, etc), I think an easier way to handle this is to simple say you can replace units MC for MC.


Bulk Crusier has 2 Z95s & 2 R41s = 120 MC + 138 MC = 258 MC fighters budget


Example 1 - More expensive units
Replacing with Y-Wings, which cost 72 MC per squad (6 MC per fighter).
Math: 258 MC / 6 MC = 43 Y-Wings (five less than total max).

Eample 2 - Less expensive units
Replacing with TIE Fighters, which cost 48 MC (4 MC per fighter).
Math: 258 MC / 4 MC = 64 TIE Fighters (an extra 16 fighters).

I think this makes a better dynamic? Lets you use cheap TIEs in more plentiful numbers? Prevents abuse still? Agreed?



« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 03:37:51 PM by RA Hoppus »

Offline gallpizi

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 04:32:09 PM »
I tend to agree. Basically in my mind these ships are massive so as long as you weren't replacing a 5 meter ship with a 50 meter ship it really wouldn't make sense to me to be too crazy.
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2017, 04:36:23 PM »
I tend to agree. Basically in my mind these ships are massive so as long as you weren't replacing a 5 meter ship with a 50 meter ship it really wouldn't make sense to me to be too crazy.



Right, and pricing takes size into account, so, really, that scenario shouldn't happen anyway. I think it will be hard to abuse.

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2017, 05:30:29 PM »
Ok this is the rule of the land now. Rules updated. Thanks.

Offline RanesDsane

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2017, 05:41:01 PM »
Quote from: ranes
I guess I'm a bit late to the conversation, but I think it'd be easier to just say the number of squadrons have to stay the same.



Quote from: eidolon
This.


I guess cost works, but same #s just seems simpler and with less possibility for conflict/weird things.


Agh, sorry Ranes, accidentally modded post instead of reply.  Newbs!  :-[

Cleaned up to reflect theme! apologies! - Eid
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 07:09:05 PM by TGE Eidolon »
- Ranes

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2017, 07:07:38 PM »
Its either same number of squads no limits or mc limit. I like mc limit, it captures most scenarios. A ship that carries a squad of ties in racks wont fit twelve xwings, which are more than teice the size.. the mc method captures the nuance well enough.

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 07:53:40 PM »
I'm still open to changing this, depending on what people think.

1) MC limit - whatever is default = total MC spend allowed on unit type (current rules)

2) Unit for unit as long as they are same type. Size, cost, etc don't matter. In other words, you can put 6 B-Wing Squads on an ISD-I or 6 TIE Fighter squads. You can use all ATAT or all Speederbikes, so long as count is not exceeded.

If we went #2 route, I would make units *not* included on capital ships/facilities as a balance. You just build what you want, end of story.

Thoughts? I want to get this resolved, and I would like the best solution for the game - maybe its not mine! - so I'll listen to any arguments/votes/passionate rhetoric one way or another.

Ideally its something simple and fair. I dont think GAVs have MASSIVE difference, so dont care much if ATATs replace Speeder Bikes, so long people are paying the difference :P  Starfighters, is another matter, but still, so long as you pay the difference... If you really want ot use TIE Advanced and B-Wings for every fighter unit, the cost will probably catch up to you if you lose a lot of fighters anyway.

What do you think!

This is the last issue, after we resolve this, we lock it down.

One other wrinkle, if we dont include units with a capital ship, then I believe we need to adjust the algo to give emphasis on firepower/damage tolerance and less on what it can carry. Probably would lower overall cost of ships as well... basically, ANOTHER PRICE CHANGE :P **kills self**

Offline gallpizi

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2017, 08:10:39 PM »
How about this so as not to go nuts with price changes.

For the starting units the price gets you those units.  If anyone has seen Ranes spreadsheet for his bank he did a good job of "remove X" "replace Y". For all starting units that's how we go.

After the starting units then we can say anything on standard HAS to be built to be added.  Want B-Wings? Build them.  Then either scrap the X-Wings or maybe someone creates a new mothball depot tech or something.
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 08:28:49 PM »
How about this so as not to go nuts with price changes.

For the starting units the price gets you those units.  If anyone has seen Ranes spreadsheet for his bank he did a good job of "remove X" "replace Y". For all starting units that's how we go.

After the starting units then we can say anything on standard HAS to be built to be added.  Want B-Wings? Build them.  Then either scrap the X-Wings or maybe someone creates a new mothball depot tech or something.


I've played with the spreadsheet and formula and actually am leaning this way now (ha!) as prices reflect unit value much better, IMO.

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 09:41:58 PM »
Option 3:
Change all specs to generic listings "X (Unit Type)."
Default for Imperial is TIE Fighter.
Default for everyone else is Z-95 Headhunter.
Default GAVs are Speeder Bikes.
Default AUX are Lambda Shuttles.
Default INF are (Faction) Infantry.
Faction leaders pay difference in cost to upgrade accordingly.
Length is disregarded.
Cannot exceed max number allowed.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 09:48:46 PM by IR Hale »
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Offline Lordmaligan

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 11:39:35 PM »
Hales idea seems like a lot of work
Either of the first two options is fine by me
If I had to vote I'll go with size
If you pick MC I will never buy a VSD :p

Offline RanesDsane

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2017, 03:34:55 AM »
I get where you're coming from as far as wanting to use some unit of measure for replacements. 

If size is our justification, then we should use ship length.  I don't like using the cost because pretty much any ship you're going to want to upgrade to is going to cost more.  A TIE is 7m and costs 48MC.  A TIE Interceptor is 7m and costs 54MC.  Why shouldn't you be able to do a 1 for 1 replacement here?  With length, you can, with MC, you can't.  If we want to go for some realism there, then I think we should stick to length.

That said, at some point we shoot ourselves in the foot for realism vs simplicity.  I absolutely agree that it makes sense and is more realistic to have some sort of comparative measure for replacements.  But, at the same time, that adds a rather significant level of complexity, too.  Is that complexity worth it?  I lean towards no.  If you're really concerned about it, then I would propose to classify fighters into 3 groups.  Light, Standard, Heavy, then use the table below.  A TIE would be light, an x-wing standard, and a b-wing heavy, for example.  Say, <=10m is light, >10 to <=16 is standard, and >16 is heavy.

Light       Standard  Heavy
Light1:12:13:1
Medium1:21:11:2
Heavy1:31:21:1

So, within class it's a 1:1 for squadrons.  Moving up a class means you can fit an additional squadron.  Moving down a class means you can fit half the squadrons.  If you're worried about swarm tactics/too many fighters then make it a one way conversion by saying you can never have more total squadrons than you start with, like AUX are now (and we probably should have that, even though it reduces options).

Using the VSD as an example:  The VSD gets 2 TIE squadrons (a light squadron), so a VSD could carry 2 TIE, 2 TIE/I, 2 IRD/A, or 2 A-Wing squadrons.  OR, 1 TIE/A, 1 TIE B, 1 Z-95, 1 CloakShape, 1 R-41, 1 Hornet, 1 X-Wing or 1 Y-wing squadron.  OR 1/2 B-Wing squadron.

The DRED would look the same (starting with 1 standard sized squadron), unless you want the rule of no more than the starting squadron count.  In which case, it can have 1 of any light or medium squadron and 1/2 of any heavy.

The Venator starts with 5 Standards, so you could do something like this as an upgrade:  2 IRD/A Squadrons (1:2), 2 CloakShape (1:1 exchange), and 1 B-Wing (2:1).  Still 5 squadrons, still basically the same amount of space accounted for.

This approach gives us some level of realism while significantly reducing the number of calculations that need to go into it.  I would say with this approach that you keep the starting squadrons as is and we pay the difference for replacements.  It also means that ships don't need to be re-priced again.


TL;DR:  3 Sizes of Fighters.  1:1 replacement within sizes, 1:2 / 2:1 between adjacent sizes, and 1:3 / 3:1 between the others.  Limit of same number of squadrons as started with.  Upgrade cost is replacement fighter cost - base squadron value at build time.  Sizes are <=10m is light, >10 to <=16 is standard, and >16 is heavy.


P.S./Side Note: I'll start another thread to discuss mothballing.
- Ranes

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2017, 07:51:08 AM »
Not that I took it personally, but I don't think my method is a lot of work. In fact I think it's the simplest of all.

If the ISD comes with 6 TIE Fighter Squadrons and you want an-all TIE Interceptor load out, you pay the difference in production costs.
TIE Interceptor (54 MC) - TIE Fighter (48 MC) = 6 MC difference per squadron.
6 MC x 6 TIE Interceptor (Upgrade Squadrons) = 36 MC.
Done.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 07:53:51 AM by IR Hale »
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2017, 08:31:41 AM »
Some good ideas here. I will post again later once I've had time to think on them more. Thank you!

Offline RanesDsane

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Re: Swapping Units: Soliciting Experiences!
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2017, 08:40:15 AM »
Not that I took it personally, but I don't think my method is a lot of work. In fact I think it's the simplest of all.

If the ISD comes with 6 TIE Fighter Squadrons and you want an-all TIE Interceptor load out, you pay the difference in production costs.
TIE Interceptor (54 MC) - TIE Fighter (48 MC) = 6 MC difference per squadron.
6 MC x 6 TIE Interceptor (Upgrade Squadrons) = 36 MC.
Done.

It's simple, yep.  It's basically what we had, minus the length restriction and with all units being base units instead of defined in the stats as they are.
- Ranes