Star Wars Episode VII - SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD!!!

[SWSF Hoppus]

Spoil away!

[SWSF Hale]

I'm just wondering how we're going to get a game out of the Resistance vs First Order, lol. Still scratching my head on that one.

[SWSF Eidolon]

  The Geo-Political situation seems strange.  From the dialogue, it sounds like the Republic/Senate (referred to as New Republic in the secondary First Order XO guys hitler type speech scene) is an entirely separate entity than the Resistance and First Order elements themselves, which seem to be locked more so in I guess what almost amounts to a "spiritual/ideological" war between each other over Skywalker/WhoInheritsDominionOfForceWielding I guess? While the Senate/NR carries itself onward, presumably still with some of the lingering rifts caused from Republic to Imperial Era back to Republicish Era?

  To try and make real world comparison..  It's almost like the NR = UN, while the FO and Resistance are like these separate Militias fighting their own proxy war that various constituents of the galaxy either back or oppose or work with to various degrees.  But the IMMEDIATE impact of the battle between Resistance and FO doesn't necessarily have a consequence for the NR/Senate, but the long run obviously plays in to who inherits a degree of the reins of power?



  From that jumping to a game dynamic..  Maybe we have to pick a member world of the Senate/NR that we control to some degree, the FO and Resistance are out there existing as background element regardless of how we embed/interact/use them, but then we are tying the World that we back/control to the backing whichever horse we decide in the struggle between FO/Resistance.

  If we are going with time frame before Ep VII a year/couple years, then we easily leave Luke as MIA and the search for him being a pivotal part of what the FO/Resist do against each other.


  I need to see the movie a few mores times to pull more of a total galactic setting/feel away from it though.

[Medivh]

1) It definitely seemed like the Republic and the Resistance were two separate entities.

And also, that the First Order destroyed the Republic with one strike of the weapon (star killer?).  That scene where those on Coruscant looked up, saw the ball of fire approaching, and then planets were destroyed.  Was that the end of the New Republic?

And why was the resistance (run by Leia) separate from the Republic?

2) I think it was clear from early on that Han was going to be killed. For one thing, Harrison Ford has indicated he wasn't going to or didn't want to be in future films. He had a big role in this one (unlike Leia, who was mostly a cameo), but they are also moving away from old heroes to new heroes.  Ben Solo - aka Kylo Ren - was a reasonable name, though a part of me was hoping they would name him Jacen, as tribute to the now non-canon star wars universe.  At one point, I definitely thought Rey was going to be his twin (like Jaina and Jacen, Luke and leia), and it seems like she is related to SOMEONE - maybe Luke's daughter?

3) The line from the teaser "my father had it ... you have that power as well" was never stated in the movie, which means it might be a line never said (the first part of the line was from RotJ, but the last wasn't) and just added for teaser ness, or it might be a line from Episode 8, which comes out in two years.    The fact that Luke doesn't show up until the last minute of the movie certainly indicates he will have a bigger role in the next film

4) Biggest Criticism: Okay, Rey was pretty awesome, but there is something about suddenly having and being able to use the Force with such skill.  She was able to fight and defeat Kylo Ren (who we know is still alive, albeit injured), even though she had no training whatsoever. She was able to manipulate a guard into releasing her, even though we have no indication she even knew a jedi could do that, or even knew that she had that power at that point.
By comparison, Luke couldn't beat Darth Vader in Empire, even though he had started receiving training.  And Finn, despite being a hero, should have been torn to pieces when fighting Kylo Ren, but he managed to hold his own. That shouldn't have been possible.

5) The battle to destroy the star killer weapon was kind of besides the point for me - no main characters in the space battle, and we cared more about Han, Rey, and Finn at that point.  We also easily knew how the battle would end.

6) Really liked Finn's character.  Really liked Rey's character. Really liked BB-8. Also, really enjoyed Lupitya N'Yong's (sp?) character, the one that gave luke's first lightsaber to Rey/Finn.
BTW, how did she get that saber? didn't it fall at Cloud City, along with Luke's hand? THAT, btw, is why I think Rey might be Luke's daughter - she was told it was passed from Anakin to Luke to her.  BUT then again, Rey remebered her parents leaving her on Jakku, unless those weren't her real parents.

So many unanswered questions.

[SWSF Hale]

1) Not sure if that was Coruscant that got blown up though. Kinda looked like it I guess? Who knows.

2) As soon as Han stepped out onto the catwalk I was like "and this is where he dies", simply because I knew Harrison Ford wanted out. It ruined the scene for me, because I was waiting for it. That being said, to me, the movie was Han Solo. As soon as he came on screen, it became about him. It was awesome. While it lasted.

3) Forget the teaser trailers! The actual trailers were a big tease!

4) Loved Rey and the actress... definitely looking forward to her in the next films, but you're spot on. One of the cornerstones of how the Force works in Star Wars is that it requires training. Hell, ALL of the Lucas-written films seem to focus completely on training. Episode 1: Training Anakin, Episode 2: Anakin is getting held back, Episode 3: Lack of training forces Anakin to seek power by other means, Episode 4: Luke begins training, Episode 5: Luke forgoes training to fight Vader, Episode 6: Luke completes training.

Did I mention training?

So yeah, Rey's apparent lack of training was not reconciled within the film itself, and as it stands right now, cannot be reconciled with canon.

One theory is that when Anakin "brought balance to the Force", the Force itself was able to manifest itself differently in terms of powers and abilities, and thus individuals with a strong connection to the Force are inherently more powerful than either the Jedi or the Sith because they can intuitively use it by tapping into the will of the Force. This is of course a very mystical and esoteric understanding of the Force, but it at least explains (to some extent) the discrepancy.

5) Really liked Finn and Poe. Should be great to see "the new gang" team up.

6) Rey is almost positively connected to Luke somehow. Potentially, she's even a.... wait for it.... CLONE from the severed hand. Which explains A LOT.

[SWSF Eidolon]

  I think they destroyed 5 planets total but they named a single star system in the dialogue and implied it was more or less a New Republic bastion/hub/center of some sort, meaning all 5 worlds in a single system though.  "Hosnian" system I think.

  If it were 5 inhabited planets in a single system- that fits amazingly with original Corellia  EU (Corellia, Drall, Selonia, Talus? , Tralus?) which is also something I'd think that proximity wise could possibly interpret visually as it did on screen to what looked like people on Coruscant..  but to leap and think maybe they renamed Corellia to Hosnia* and that those are the worlds I'd doubt..  but that'd be sweet imnsho!

  Confusing all together though to say the least.

  2) hated it. anti-climactic and rushed at best description. they shouldn't have unmasked Kylo/Ben in first movie maybe to draw it out.  The whole thing felt rushed to me, but maybe it's greed and wanting more.  I seriously felt like after seeing Indiana Jones 4 in theatres though. 


   4) Rey was the standout and my fav aspect of whole movie.  Have heard complaints of her do-all mary sue nature but, if the implied notion that she is either Bens twin or sibling or Lukes daughter.. who knows she is the next most powerful jedi to luke.  She's a solo and/or a skywalker though.  Solo seems obvious which makes me want to lean skywalker and?.  But then again, her and hans relationship on the falcon with chewie was too damn paternal to ignore.  Leia is strong in the force we know still be seems untrained.. her and han having no mention or private reflection of knowledge of another child besides their fallen son Ben makes me think she's not Solo at all.

    Also with respects to Reys talents and force ability.  For one I think when Kylo reaches in to her mind with the force, and she is compelled to resist by sheer will of nature.  It touches a nerve so to speak.  Her lack of training is made up for in having that nerve pinched/tweaked at the moment.  She knows of the Jedi we already know from her dialogue earlier in the movie so she knows rumors and what not of them.  Also, this bit of script from ROTJ..

   LUKE
There's more. It won't be easy for you to hear it, but you must. If I
don't make it back, you're the only hope for the Alliance.

Leia is very disturbed by this. She moves away, as if to deny it.

LEIA
Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power I--I don't understand and
could never have.

LUKE
You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to
use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has
it...I have it...and...my sister has it.

Leia stares into his eyes. What she sees there frightens her. But she
doesn't draw away. She begins to understand.

LUKE
Yes. It's you Leia.

LEIA
I know. Somehow...I've always known.

LUKE
Then you know why I have to face him.

LEIA
No! Luke, run away, far away. If he can feel your presence, then leave
this place. I wish I could go with you.

LUKE
No, you don't. You've always been strong.

    ... Luke implies that Leia is stronger than him in the force.  She's untrained, yet she's always been strong in her own ways by implied will of the Force naturally.  She is the only hope for the Alliance.
If Rey is a Skywalker then she has this implied natural instinct, combined with being prodded by the force mentally by Kylo and it makes for a strong connection I think.  Rey is my favorite part from the whole thing right now and probably enduringly.

    Luke notes Leia is the only hope for the Alliance if he doesn't return.  He returns, but when he vanishes again because of Ben's fall, she is seemingly General of the Resistance here in Ep VII, lending some aspect to the concept of the Resistance standing out from the NR as a more ideological element seeking to smite out the Dark Side if everyone in it is specifically following General Leia Organa-Skywalker on a bit of an "old crusade" against lingering elements of Sith loyalists?  Though I didn't feel Fisher gave a quality performance in that role here.  Does anyone remember what they address her as?  I think it was Organa at one point but not positive.

   Does it seem like FO people know they are serving Sith masters?  Even half the room doubted Vader until he gave the neck pinch demonstration in Ep IV.  I can't specifically place it really right now in Ep VII though, I'm still a bit overloaded and trying to dissect it all while losing some parts.  I hope to get back to theatre this Weds for viewing 2 and maybe 3!

[Medivh]

     Luke notes Leia is the only hope for the Alliance if he doesn't return.  He returns, but when he vanishes again because of Ben's fall, she is seemingly General of the Resistance here in Ep VII, lending some aspect to the concept of the Resistance standing out from the NR as a more ideological element seeking to smite out the Dark Side if everyone in it is specifically following General Leia Organa-Skywalker on a bit of an "old crusade" against lingering elements of Sith loyalists?  Though I didn't feel Fisher gave a quality performance in that role here.  Does anyone remember what they address her as?  I think it was Organa at one point but not positive.

   Does it seem like FO people know they are serving Sith masters?  Even half the room doubted Vader until he gave the neck pinch demonstration in Ep IV.  I can't specifically place it really right now in Ep VII though, I'm still a bit overloaded and trying to dissect it all while losing some parts.  I hope to get back to theatre this Weds for viewing 2 and maybe 3!

Leia is referred to as General Organa, at least once.
The role of Kylo Ren is distinct from Darth Vader, and previous sith incarnations.  For one thing, we used to believe that "Darth" was a title obtained when one became a sith lord, but Ben Solo got the title of "Ren" because he is the leader of the knights of Ren - a separate order of sith, distinct from the Darths?  Not sure.
In Episode 5 and 6, no imperial officer would stand up against Vader. He was clearly the right hand of the Emperor. VADER spoke to the Emperor - we never saw anyone else do that.  Here, the FO official was competing with Kylo Ren, and even bad mouthed him to the supreme leader Snoke. Ren doesn't inspire the same fear/awe that Vader did, and no indication that he or Snoke are venerated as sith.

[SWSF Hale]

BTW, here's the opening crawl (which I completely blacked out over due to sheer excitement!) ---

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke's whereabouts....

In the OT it totally seemed like all those Moffs on the Death Star were highly skeptical of the Force and Darth Vader. After all, the Jedi at that point were long gone, and Vader was probably the only visible Force user in the galaxy aside from the Emperor - who may have maintained his clout as "Palpatine" by hiding his Force abilities.

For all we know, the narrative is that the Jedi tried to assassinate Palpatine and stage a coup, and Vader stopped the Jedi from doing that. From that point of view, "the truth" could have been anything the Empire wanted the galaxy to know. The whole Light Side vs Dark Side conflict is very private, and is more or less a side show (Luke could have avoided confronting the Emperor and flown an X-Wing instead during the Battle of Endor), and the end result would have been the same -- Emperor and Vader killed.

However, a Rebel Alliance victory should have given them credibility if the Galactic Senate was reinstated with the New Republic.  Historians have a concept called "living memory" which is to say, the complete historical record according to everyone currently alive based on their own memory, or more simply "the last 100 years". Living memory has the greatest impact on social and geopolitical issues than anything else. Given that TFA is 34 ABY, living memory extends as far back as 70 BBY, well past the Clone Wars (22 BBY) and during a time when Jedi were recognized as true guardians more or less. With decades of alien rights violations under their belt, I'm sure a lot of people were happy the Empire was out, leaving me to question why anyone would support the First Order.

Here's where it gets tricky.

According to the novelization, Finn was born 7 years After Endor, and he was, according to the film, "raised from birth to be a stormtrooper". Which means some pockets of the galaxy were still in an "Imperial bubble" of sorts despite a Rebel victory and Finn was able to grow up in this bubble for 23 years.

[Syren]

I thought you fucking assholes were going to wait until after Christmas.

Fine, whatever.

They didn't give us much political backstory but it's fun speculating. I thought perhaps that post-Imperial loss at Endor, the New Republic was formed and Leia was a larger part of that. Over time, that Republic became bloated, bureaucratic, as the Old Republic once did therefore allowing Palpatine to manipulate his way into power and create the Galactic Empire. Corruption spread, etc, and suddenly there's the Resistance (I.E. Separatist from the prequel trilogy, Rebel Alliance of the OG), who opposed what this governing body had become. The whole shit with the Solo kid turning on Luke happens and everyone is fractured and lost in their own ways. Han and Luke running away is a straight-up bitch move, something Leia would view as cowardly considering they everything they fought through together. Men.

I gasped then shed a few tears when Solo fell. I mean, I felt it coming in that scene, tense as it was, but a secret part of me prayed someone would be able to stop it.

Someone tell me how the fuck one "loses" the Falcon?

Here's the shit about Rey. Loved her and yes, the whole control of the Force so soon bit was startling, but I think she's legit Luke's daughter. When she touched the saber and had those visions, it showed her being pulled away as a child on Jakku. I thought at first it could be she was separated from Ben (much the same way Luke and Leia were at birth) but when it became clear Rey wasn't a Solo and she said she was waiting for her parents - I think Luke/possible wife-mother left her there after his failure with Ben, knowing that a Sith Solo would brand her a target. This would set up another second-act "I am your father" moment but, like, in a nice way where everyone gets to keep their appendages.

The whole thing had a very New Hope feel, sans medal ceremony, but I appreciated the humor and shout out's to our shared history with these characters.

Favs:

When Chewie says he's cold.

When Finn says to Rey, "You got a boyfriend? A cute boyfriend?"

When Han says to Leia, "You changed your hair."

Were there issues? Certainly. By no means was it perfect but for the love of everything holy can we just take a minute to realize how blessed we are this wasn't Episode 1 all over again? Or the re-releases with added scenes? It didn't feel like it ruined anything for me. It didn't feel disrespectful or stilted. I will need to see it more times just to soak in it a bit.

[SWSF Hale]

I thought you fucking assholes were going to wait until after Christmas.

Hop started it! 


I'm kinda fine with the hyper-nostalgia of the whole thing. It just means Episodes 8 and 9 wont have to revisit the OT in such an over-the-top fashion and will be free to branch off into a new story direction and focus on the new characters - who all look great!

[Rinny]

The system that was destroyed was the Hosnian (?) system, and it was the current home of the Senate.  I get the feeling that the crafters of the new story basically said "Fuck all of the political nonsense, Star Wars is about this other stuff" and just completely took the responsibility of ruling the galaxy out of the mainline story.  The Resistance was backed by the Republic, but it seems mainly to get Leia out of their hair since there's information from the novelization that she disagreed with the Republic frequently, didn't want a peace treaty with the Imperial warlords, and didn't want to scuttle the fleet.  From a movie perspective abandoning having to explain the complex political structure of a galactic spanning government is great, but for the overall lore of the universe I'm not sure how many times we can hit reset to the scrappy band of rebels before it gets unsustainable.

For Hale and the concept of "Living Memory":  In Lost Stars in particular much of the story goes over what its like to grow up on a planet that is happy to join the Empire.  History is rewritten by the Empire, the Emperor saved the galaxy from the corruption of the Republic, the chaos of the Clone Wars, and I forget how it described the Jedi but I remember thinking "oh that's so sad."  The older people who remembered life before the Clone Wars stayed silent out of fear.  If Nazi Germany and Japan had won WW2 and occupied the US, how much would we as a society remember about American life during the 1930s?  Old people sure, but you'd have 3 generations who grew up and were taught in school and through the media that the old government was terrible and deserved to be replaced.

As for Rey--loved her.  She reminded me of Anakin (hope someone makes this comparison to Kylo Ren!).  Someone who is strong in the Force, lives with and uses it without even realizing it.  Is it highly unlikely someone with just raw power and no training would be able to use mind manipulation? Resist a mind probe? Figure out how to tap into the Force to defeat a more skilled foe?  (Even though watching it a second time I realized that moment was a throw back to when Maz told her to closer her eyes and let the Force in.)  Yep, highly unlikely.  Is there more to Rey's story and who left her on Jakku?  Definitely.  Is she a Skywalker/Solo Twin/Clone/Kenobi?  Ehhh on those points I'm not sold.  I think there's more to her, maybe even she was a trainee of Luke's that was hidden away, but man... this idea that "Oh she's SO strong she MUST be a Skywalker!"  "That's not how the Force works!"

I think that line is especially funny because that's literally what Rey does.  She just uses the Force.

I want more Poe Dameron.  So thankful the writers went back and decided not to kill him.  Can't wait til the three of them get together--Rey hasn't even MET him yet!!  Everything with him and the Xwings just got me so hyped for Rogue One.

[SWSF Hale]

So, apparently the novels Star Wars: Aftermath (in the Journey to the Force Awakens series) as well as the "Shattered Empire" (comics) spell out a lot of the geopolitics. Here's the highlights:

1. At the event of Palpatine's death, he had a system in place to send out pre-recorded HOLONET messages to Grand Moffs and such to begin scuttling strategic systems (called "Operation: CINDER"). I can only imagine this included Kuat, Fondor, etc. The death of Palpatine would serve to function as martyrdom to inspire fanaticism for the Imperial remnant.

2. Apparently Leia goes on a mission to Naboo and has a vision of Darth Maul. Probably a Force echo, but in Operation: Cinder, Naboo is ordered to have its climate ruined by disruption arrays. Perhaps Maul survived and was biding his time? And the Emperor wanted to seal his fate?

3. One year after Endor, the Battle of Jakku happens and is basically a mass casualty battle. After the battle, Mon Mothma reinstates the Galactic Republic (New Republic) on Chandrila and brokers a peace treaty which confines the Empire's borders. Part of this peace treaty included galactic demilitarization protocols. (Treaty of Versailles anyone?) The New Republic becomes a demilitarized entity, more like the United Nations. Imperial territory becomes a post-WWI Germany of sorts.

4. A Darth Vader cult emerges called "Acolytes of the Beyond", contrast to Luke's Jedi Order. Things like "Vader lives" get spray painted all over the place. Apparently, Palpatine said the source of the Dark Side's power comes "from beyond the galaxy" and so that's where the cult gets its name.

5. Han Solo liberates Kashyyk with Chewie.

6. Boba Fett's armor is in a Jawa junkpile. This means Boba is dead, and the Sarlaac spit out the armor, or he escaped and had to leave the armor behind to fake his death. Shoutout to the EU.

[gallpizi]

I pretty much covered all of this in the latest episode of the Coruscant Pulse Podcast.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Saw Ep VII for 2nd time tonite. It sits much better now. I have tix for sat nite 1130 and mon morn 9am already.

What is the marker on the stone and upright grave-like stone itself luke stands in front of?

Could be Reys mothers grave as her father stands before it I say.

The slick alien lady with the funky goggles- when she talks to Rey who just experienced the force vision from toucbing the saber. She shes "it was skywalkers, and his father before him. It calls to you now" Remember shes got special sightskills with those sexyspecs

Sure we all know that from outside whose saber it is but its a hint Im hoping!!!! Trying to picture Reys force vision, more specifically the part on her getting left on Jakku.  She also is a natural tinkerer and pilot- sounds like Anikan and Luke.


Also with respects to Reys rapid ascent/grasp- no more so than Lil Ani's podracing acumen. Ntm we know the force runs stronger in skywalker females with Leias natural resilience to the mind probe back in ANH. When Kylo is reaching into her mind she feels him back but is a bit stunned by it herself.  "Youre afraid youll never be as strong?powerful? as Darth Vader"

 

 I half expect Finn and Chewie to be long term companions.  Theres the moment Finn fixes him up when hes hit with blaster at goggle-ladys raid, then chewie is Finns tender in Falcon rescue on Starkiller base.

  Im ok with Carrie now.  Not cool. Just ok.

  Re Politics.  The FO nonforcie guy is Geneal Hsssomethingks In his ravenous speech he noted that they will destroy the government of Republic that lies to the galaxy for its secret support of the disorder inciting Resistance. So Hosnian destruction crippled it apparently. Also  after when Resistance discovere Starkiller is charging up to kill them after tracking ship to Ileneum? System where General Leia Organasbase is a Resistance officer states "without Republic fleet.." We dont stand a chance more or less. We know first then that Republic had own military element stationed at Hosnian as well? I suppose this implies Republic would even cooperate openly with Resistance when we know at least secretly they already do.

  Read all of those Marvel comics- good stories.  I highly recommend checking some out in graphic novel format.  Best is Darth Vader series.

   Battle of Jakku and Chandrila bit and Vader Lives cult is interesting. Anything to do w Vaders mask falling to Kylos possession?  I did catch that mention of the Knights Ren as an Order more or less in the movie this time around as well.

[Medivh]

The slick alien lady with the funky goggles- when she talks to Rey who just experienced the force vision from toucbing the saber. She shes "it was skywalkers, and his father before him. It calls to you now" Remember shes got special sightskills with those sexyspecs

Maz Kanata, played by Lupita Nyong'o
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Maz_Kanata