GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!

[Ramano]

I... dont know how to answer that, Hale. I still havnt been told what you guys are doing with combat yet. If we are talking a single Tie Fighter per person, I cant possibly see this using a standard sim combat format. I mean, seriously what can you do with a single tie fighter?

If we are using a non-standard format, then I dont know enough about it to answer the question one way or the other.

And if we are basically just doing an SL thing, where we make a post, use a bunch of big, fancy oxford words and a bunch of stuff miraculously dies, I... I mean dont take this as me telling you not to do it, but I really cant emphasize for you how much im not interested in doing that kind of simming. And if this is what you are looking at, just let me know now so I go back to being a lurker and stop suggesting changes to what you are trying to do.

[SWSF Eidolon]

  "would you guys be more interested in starting out as a lone TIE Pilot who works his way up the ranks"

 
   For sake of specificity I have zero desire to do anything with a TIE .

   More broadly, I'm not opposed to concept of lower starting points for players Main Characters, but, I am highly in favor of the general system on track for now which makes use of multiple characters/character groups, dispersed at times or together at times as necessity/ability dictates.  I just wouldn't want to see that part infringed for sake of a more ground level start point for players.


   My espousal for multiple character usage as units of a sort like this is because I think if we are all sticking to one specific main character lower on a rank/influence scale, we are further limited with the types of characters that are under that Main Chars umbrella of plausible companions to an extent.  Who is hanging out with a TIE Pilot besides his wingmen?  Not to say it's all so typecast and flat, but simply to illustrate the occupational distance between characters we might come up with.

   I suppose if we are talking about a genuine GROUP/set/team of characters for one player, but just overall the rank/influence type of chars a player can use being limited to more entry command levels at beginning, then it more or less plays out the same.

   I would still have some slight concern that a lack of enough diversity amongst the types of forces each player has leads to a lack of as much confrontation as there would be otherwise though.  Of course, that is also solved somewhat with shrinking playing field even further.

   But I mean ultimately, who is a TIE pilot fighting besides Rebel pilots in his ship?  Unless he crashes somewhere and is pursued by some Rebel Guerillas, but then where is the skill set he's drawing on as a TIE Pilot in the wilderness tracked by Rebels?  Makes for a good story but probably not so much of a balanced playable game.  Definitely sounds treading much closer to dedicated RPG of sorts, unless I misinterpreting which can occur 

[SWSF Eidolon]

  If you want to fly a TIE and get shot down and have me track your ass like Rambo.  That could be a sweet Character Adventure based game 


  I'd even make it Endor and be Ewoks. 

[SWSF Hale]

Ramano: I still havnt been told what you guys are doing with combat yet.

Hale:The demo will likely consist of a CRAK + 6 TIE Fighters vs CORV + 4 X-Wings + 2 Y-Wings, as this will be representative of the scale and size of combat for management purposes.

But with a hex grid, weapon ranges, and a brand-spanking new Fire Control system to replace the Universal Combat Rating system.

[Ramano]

But... didnt you just ask if we wanted to be piloting a single tie fighter? See, a CRAK and assorted fighters vs a Corv and assorted fighters, ok, yeah it would be small but yeah that would work under a normal combat sim format.

But a single tie fighter? Please excuse my minor freak out here but... WTF kind of combat you planning on having with single tie fighters!?!? Thats not going to work in any format ive ever seen outside of storyline only. So thats either something new, so I cant really speak on what I think for ship usage until I see what you came up with, or you are planning an SL Only sim, which im just not interested in.

Quote
GCW Hale: Something to consider: would you guys be more interested in starting out as a lone TIE Pilot who works his way up the ranks and becomes a VSD commander and beyond, or would you rather start out as a VSD commander and expand your power from there?

[SWSF Hale]

GALACTIC CIVIL WAR: THE LOST CAMPAIGNS

MOCK BATTLE/GAME DEMONSTRATION
In this demo of a Battle Mission, we will begin with a Rebel Strike Group, consisting of 3 X-Wings versus 4 TIE Fighters. Rebels will exit hyperspace first and begin the Battle with their initial Movement Phase. We will cycle through 2 rounds just so you understand how everything works.

Planet Grid:


Phases of Mission
1. Selection Phase -- Players select which units they want to send on a mission. Once those units are selected, units enter hyperspace for their destination.

2. Deployment Phase -- Units exit hyperspace at their destination. Depending on the mission (Battle, Diplomacy, Transport, Recon, etc.) the next phases might be different, but for now, this is just going to demo a Battle Mission.

3. Movement Phase -- Players take turns moving units. The player who initiated the Mission always goes first.

4. Combat Phase -- Players take turns shooting weapons. If no vessels are in weapons range, then it is possible for the Combat Phase to skip.

5. Resolution Phase -- Damage and effects from combat are resolved.

6. Next Round -- Players repeat Movement, Combat, and Resolution until the Mission is over.

7. Completion Phase -- Results from the Mission are resolved (experience, etc.).

IN PRACTICE, here's how it will look:


--------------------------------------------------
(SELECTED) BATTLE RULES

PILOT
Pilots earn 1 Experience Point by scoring 1 Kill or completing 1 Mission. They add +1 AR/DR to the vessel they are piloting for each Level. Squadron Leader Bonus: All other starfighters in the same formation of an Elite Pilot get +1 AR/DR, if Legendary +3 AR/DR. Experienced Pilots can be requisitioned from High Command at a cost of 5 KC x EXP Level (example: Veteran Pilots cost 25 KC).
(Level 0) Junior - 0 EXP
(Level 1) Rookie -- 1 EXP
(Level 2) Veteran -- 5 EXP
(Level 3) Ace -- 10 EXP
(Level 4) Elite -- 30 EXP
(Level 5) Legendary -- 50 EXP


STARFIGHTER FORMATIONS
Attack Pattern ALPHA -- Lead Starfighter gets +2 AR/DR, Flanking Starfighters get -2 DR. Lead Starfighter may deflect all incoming damage to Flanking Starfighters.
Flight Pattern BETA -- Default formation for all starfighters. No added bonuses or capabilities. Starfighter groups unable to form any other formation automatically revert to Beta.
Defense Pattern GAMMA -- Lead Starfighter gets -1 AR/DR, Flanking Starfighters get +1 AR/DR. Flanking Starfighters may deflect all incoming damage to the Lead Starfighter.
Attack Pattern DELTA -- Lead Starfighter gets -2 AR/DR. Following Starfighters get +2 AR.
Flight Pattern OMEGA -- Front/Top Starfighters get +1 AR. Rear/Bottom Starfighters get +1 DR. TIE SFs may use this formation regardless of how big or small the SF Flight Group is (minimum 2, maximum 6). All other SF Flight Groups must have 4 SFs in this Formation at all times or they revert to other formations.

R2 ASTROMECH (Cost: 10 KC per Level)
(Level 1) Optimize Performance -- During the Movement Phase, this unit can tweak the systems of its host starfighter for either Attack (+1 AR/-1 DR) or Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). These changes are permanent until the next Movement Phase.
(Level 2) Damage Control -- During the Movement Phase, this unit automatically recharges 1 Shield Point and repairs 1 Armor Point of its host starfighter (not to exceed limits).
(Level 3) Navicomputer Assistance -- During the Deployment Phase, this unit enables its host starfighter to exit hyperspace 2 grid spaces into a system beyond Deep Space Zones.
(Level 4) HOLONET Module -- This astromech has a built in HOLONET transceiver for storyline purposes.
(Level 5) Advanced Systems -- Penalty for Optimize Performance is ignored, bonus is doubled. Damage Control is doubled.

UNIVERSAL COMBAT RATING
SF/AUX CAR = (Base AR) - (Fire Control)
SF/AUX DR = (Speed) + (Maneuver)
CAP CAR: (Weapon TR) - (Distance) - (Fire Control)
CAP DR: (Speed) + (Maneuver)

TARGETING RATING = Missile (8), Laser (7), Ion (6), Torpedo (6), Turbolaser (5), Rocket (4), Bomb (3)
FIRE CONTROL = Subtract (Attacker's Size - Defender's Size) only when bigger units are attacking smaller ones.
UCR ACCURACY RATING = (Attack Rating)/(Defense Rating) = Weapon Accuracy % (Round to nearest whole number)

Accuracy Ratings might impact units differently depending on the number of weapons they have. For instance, when firing 4 Laser Cannons, a minimum of 25% Accuracy is needed to score 1 Hit, 50% for 2 Hits, 75% for 3 Hits, and 100% for 4 Hits. If a unit has 49%, then unfortunately, only 1 Hit is scored. Double Fire capability effectively increases the amount of shots, and so more hits might be scored.

----------------------------------------------------

T-65/A X-WING (ASSAULT)
Size/Class: (2) Light SF
Length: 13 meters
Cost: 50 KC
Hyperdrive: Yes
Astromech: Yes
Pilots: 1
Speed: 2
Maneuver: 4
Shields: 13
Armor: 13
Attack Rating: 6
Defense Rating: 6
Weapons:
4 Laser Cannons (Range: Close, Damage: 1)
2 Proton Torpedoes [8 PTs] (Range: Close, Damage: 8)
Capabilities:
Attack Run -- During the Movement Phase, if the Targeting Computer is switched ON, this unit can begin an attack run on a single capital ship by suffering a -2 DR penalty but gaining a +2 AR bonus. During the Combat Phase, up to 100% of ordinance can be launched at this target. Lasers Cannons cannot be used against this target.
Torpedo Strike -- During the Combat Phase, if the targeting computer is switched ON, this unit may fire up to 2 Proton Torpedoes against starfighters and auxiliary craft.
Full Throttle -- This unit may close its S-Foils during the Movement Phase in order to gain a +1 Speed and +1 Maneuver bonus (and as a result, +2 DR). If so, Laser Cannons become offline (and may not be used for rerouting energy).
Recharge Shields -- During the Movement Phase, this unit may take 1 Laser Cannon offline in order to recharge Shields by 1 Point. It may increase this by reducing Speed and Maneuver by -1 (each) in order to recharge Shields an additional 1 Point. Only a maximum of 5 Points can be recharged if this is done, and as a result of reduced engine energy, -2 DR.
Boost Weapons -- During the Movement Phase, this unit may reroute 1 Point of Shield energy into 1 Laser Cannon in order to increase its damage by +1 Point. This can be done up to 4 times (once for each Laser Cannon).
Targeting Computer -- During the Movement Phase, the Pilot may switch the Targeting Computer ON in order to enhance targeting capabilities. If so, this unit gets +1 AR but -1 DR as a result of the Pilot focusing more on targeting than maneuvering.
Ejection Pod -- During the Resolution Phase, if this unit blows up, the Pilot may eject and await pickup in Deep Space.


TIE/LN-1 FIGHTER (STRIKE)
Size/Class: (1) Small SF
Length: 6 meters
Cost: 22 KC
Hyperdrive: No
Astromech: No
Pilots: 1
Speed: 2
Maneuver: 6
Shields: 0
Armor: 9
Attack Rating: 4
Defense Rating: 8
Weapons:
2 SFS Laser Cannons (Range: Close, Damage: 2, Bonus: Double Fire)
Capabilities:
Short Range Fighter -- During the Movement Phase, this unit cannot move beyond 3 grid spaces of its mothership or Defense Zones (X-grids). During the Combat Phase, if this unit is in the same grid as its mothership, it gets +1 AR.

----------------------------------------------------

REBEL STRIKE GROUP "FLAME SQUADRON"
Formation: ALPHA
Lead Starfighter: Flame 1
Following Starfighters: Flame 2 + Flame 3

FLAME 1 (T-65/A X-Wing w/ Elite Pilot + Level 3 R2)
Size: 2 --- Speed: 2 --- Shields: [13/13] --- Armor: [13/13]
Attack Rating: 6 +4 (Elite Pilot) +2 (Alpha Formation) = 12
Defense Rating: 6 +4 (Elite Pilot) +2 (Alpha Formation) = 12
Weapons: 4 Laser Cannons, 2 Proton Torpedo Launchers [8/8 PTs]

FLAME 2 (T-65/A X-Wing w/ Junior Pilot + Level 1 R2)
Size: 2 --- Speed: 2 --- Shields: [13/13] --- Armor: [13/13]
Attack Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Defense Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Weapons: 4 Laser Cannons, 2 Proton Torpedo Launchers [8/8 PTs]

FLAME 3 (T-65/A X-Wing w/ Junior Pilot + Level 1 R2)
Size: 2 --- Speed: 2 --- Shields: [13/13] --- Armor: [13/13]
Attack Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Defense Rating: 6 +1 (Elite Leader) -2 (Alpha Formation) = 5
Weapons: 4 Laser Cannons, 2 Proton Torpedo Launchers [8/8 PTs]

----------------------------------------------------------------

IMPERIAL PATROL "BLACKHAWK SQUADRON"
Formation: OMEGA
Top Starfighters: Blackhawk 1 + Blackhawk 2
Bottom Starfighters: Blackhawk 3 + Blackhawk 4

BLACKHAWK 1 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 6
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) = 9
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

BLACKHAWK 2 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 6
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) = 9
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

BLACKHAWK 3 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) = 5
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 10
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

BLACKHAWK 4 (TIE/LN-1 Fighter w/ Rookie Pilot)
Size: 1 --- Speed: 2 --- Armor: [9/9]
Attack Rating: 4 +1 (Pilot) = 5
Defense Rating: 8 +1 (Pilot) +1 (Omega) = 10
Weapons: 2 SFS Laser Cannons

--------------------------------------------------------

(ROUND 1)

REBEL DEPLOYMENT PHASE
1. Flame Squadron exits hyperspace in Deep Space Zone 1.

REBEL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. Flame Squadron moves to C-1.
2. Flame 1 uses R2 to Optimize Performance for Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). Targeting Computer is switched ON (+1 AR/-1 DR).
3. Flame 2 uses R2 to Optimize Performance for Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). Targeting Computer is switched ON (+1 AR/-1 DR).
4. Flame 3 uses R2 to Optimize Performance for Defense (-1 AR/+1 DR). Targeting computer is switched ON (+1 AR/-1 DR).

Updated Status:
1. FLAME 1, AR: 12 / DR: 12
2. FLAME 2, AR: 5 / DR: 5
3. FLAME 3, AR: 5 / DR: 5

----------------------------------------------

(ROUND 1)

IMPERIAL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. Blackhawk Squadron moves to C-1.

IMPERIAL COMBAT PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 6/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

2. BLACKHAWK 2 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 6/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

3. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 5/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

4. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 2.
a. UCR: 5/5 = 100% Accuracy.
b. 4/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 8 Damage.

Updated Status:
1. BLACKHAWK 1, AR: 6 / DR: 9
2. BLACKHAWK 2, AR: 6 / DR: 9
3. BLACKHAWK 3, AR: 5 / DR: 10
4. BLACKHAWK 4, AR: 5 / DR: 10

------------------------------------------------

(ROUND 1)

REBEL COMBAT PHASE
1. FLAME 1 attacks BLACKHAWK 1.
a. FC: 12-1 = AR 11. UCR: 11/9 = 100% Accuracy
b. 4/4 Laser Cannon shots hit for 4 Damage.
c. 1/1 Proton Torpedoe shot hits for 8 Damage.

2. FLAME 2 attacks BLACKHAWK 2.
a. FC: 5-1 = AR 4. UCR: 4/9 = 44% Accuracy
b. 1/4 Laser Cannon shots hit for 1 Damage.

3. FLAME 3 attacks BLACKHAWK 2.
a. FC: 5-1 = AR 4. UCR: 4/9 = 44% Accuracy
b. 1/4 Laser Cannon shots hit for 1 Damage.

REBEL RESOLUTION PHASE
1. FLAME 1, no damage.
2. FLAME 2 takes 32 Damage and blows up. Pilot ejects (Pod in Deep Space Zone 1).
3. FLAME 3, no damage.

Updated Status:
1. FLAME 1, AR: 12 / DR: 12, -1 PT [7/8]
2. FLAME 2, DONE.
3. FLAME 3, AR: 5 / DR: 5

----------------------------------------------------

IMPERIAL RESOLUTION PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 1 blows up.
2. BLACKHAWK 2 takes 2 damage. [Armor: 7/9]
3. BLACKHAWK 3, no damage.

IMPERIAL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK SQUADRON remains in C-1.
2. Formation remains constant (Omega).

-------------------------------------------------------

REBEL MOVEMENT PHASE
1. FLAME SQUADRON remains in C-1.
2. Formation reverts to BETA.
2. FLAME 1 closes S-Foils (Lasers OFF, +2 DR).

Updated Status:
1. FLAME 1, AR: 10 / DR: 12, [PT: 7/8], S-FOILS: CLOSED, TARCOMP: ON
2. FLAME 2, DONE.
3. FLAME 3, AR: 7 / DR: 7, S-FOILS: OPEN, TARCOMP: ON, [Shields: 13/13] [Armor: 13/13]


REBEL COMBAT PHASE
1. FLAME 1 attacks BLACKHAWK 2.
a. FC: 10-1 = AR 10. UCR: 10/9 = 100% Accuracy
b. 1/1 Proton Torpedoes hit for 8 Damage.

3. FLAME 3 attacks BLACKHAWK 3.
a. FC: 7-1 = AR 6. UCR: 6/10 = 60% Accuracy
b. 2/4 Laser Cannons hit for 2 Damage.
c. 1/2 Proton Torpedoes hit for 8 Damage.

-------------------------------------------------------------

IMPERIAL COMBAT PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 2 attacks FLAME 3.
a. UCR: 6/7 = 86% Accuracy.
b. 3/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 6 Damage.

2. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 3.
a. UCR: 6/7 = 86% Accuracy.
b. 3/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 6 Damage.

3. BLACKHAWK 1 attacks FLAME 3.
a. UCR: 6/7 = 86% Accuracy.
b. 3/4 SFS Laser Cannon shots hit for 6 Damage.


IMPERIAL RESOLUTION PHASE
1. BLACKHAWK 2 takes 8 Damage and blows up.
2. BLACKHAWK 3 takes 10 Damage and blows up.

Updated Status:
1. BLACKHAWK 1, DONE.
2. BLACKHAWK 2, DONE.
3. BLACKHAWK 3, DONE.
4. BLACKHAWK 4, AR: 5 / DR: 10

--------------------------------------------------------------
END OF DEMO!!
-------------------------------------------------------------

So, the rules and specs aren't 100% final, but this should give you a general idea of how combat in general is going to work.

[SWSF Hale]

Bumping this for comments.

[SWSF Hoppus]

From my own corner that looks neat but is way too involved.

The hex grid is too complicated to use virtually, IMO. I just can't wrap my brain on it, and finding the grid spaces and how they line up is too difficult. If it were a visual board game it'd be different.

That being said, I can't see myself doing anything beyond storylining in the near future. I'm loaded between work, home and teething baby.

[SWSF Hale]

Understood. The direction I think we're going with future gaming on this forum is resembling that of tabletop game systems and RPGs. It is perhaps, too complex. We are all used to writing single posts that handle everything from movement to combat, and so breaking it down into Phases might have the appearance of more work because it looks like more posts, but the amount of work per post is actually reduced. Yet, if we simply wanted to resurrect GCW II, which imho strikes the best balance between simplicity and macro management, we probably would have done this by now. What's popular right now with the kids are the tabletops and RPGs, and so simply out of necessity to engage that market - we have to consider alternative models of simming which we may not be accustomed to.

I personally think the idea of a lone Rebel CO building up a cell network, adding more SFs to his garage, and working with CORVs and GR-75s sounds like a more exciting direction to pursue than building massive fleets spanning multiple systems. Articulating that smaller scale I think demands complexity, because if we used standard specs and rules to resolve engagements like 3 X-Wings vs 4 TIE Fighters, both the process and the results wouldn't be satisfying.

As compelling of a case I may present to this forum to go in this smaller and more complicated direction, it is in the eyes of the beholder. There is an equally compelling case to simply say "we're all busy with life, so let's just wait until Episode VII comes out and build a new sim around that". I can see that.

[SWSF Eidolon]

 It looks like a lot because it's a whole sequence all in one post when it would ordinarily be in probably 4 posts, 2 each player involved. give or take 1 here and there perhaps.  But really it'd be merely a manner of adjusting to a new progression dynamic as opposed to an All In One Post set up for each player per turn.

  I hear you on your time.  And the layered complexity perception could be simplified I think with more of a visual marking system like .jpg/.gif 'cards' so to speak for units with color coded value sets.  eventually you unconsciously become programmed to know the colors relevant subject.  A simplified grid presentation perhaps with pure hexs, terrain diff on ground grids.

  This current system is geared towards the ability to build up from small scale to modestly large though, it could perhaps benefit from being reduced to considering only small scale and even still less 'factional' focus to a more strict character focus.  Whenever we get to writing a small group tends to eventually form, sustainment of it I think for some of us is general interest/dedication which has to be somehow tied to a friendly competitive system of mutually affected gains and detractions.  Even a basic ability to sort of 'duel' on a character level in some aspect.  Or narrowing scope to a near 'character group/orbit' atmosphere even.  Even closer to rpg than simming itself, but simpler character bases and evolution paths.  Gains through story used for currency to heighten character traits within a class perhaps.

   Awaiting other communal input if any perhaps before too much assessment.  Again everything is fluid.

[SWSF Hale]

0

[SWSF Hale]

I would encourage you guys to review this thread. It contains a lot of conversations we've had over the last year in regards to "the next game."


SO, revisting an idea from 2 years ago was the "Composite Fleet" system of management. EVERYTHING was lumped together, and the fleets would literally exchange fire as 1 unit.

With that system, and the current Option B specs, here's what it would look like:

Imperial Fleet
UCR: 4.14 (average of CAPs)
DUR: 1826
AR: 472
24 Turbolasers (240)
6 Ion Cannons (48)
8 Laser Cannons (40)
14 Starfighters (96)
10 Auxiliaries (48)

Republic Fleet
UCR: 4.42
DUR: 1771
AR: 502
14 Turbolasers (140)
8 Ion Cannons (64)
6 Laser Cannons (30)
12 Starfighters (192)
12 Auxiliaries (76)

IMP attacks REP, 474 x [4.14 / 4.42] = 443 DMG
REP attacks IMP, 502 x [4.42 / 4.14] = 535 DMG

Imperial Fleet will survive 4 rounds.
Republic Fleet will survive 5 rounds.

Republic Fleet wins, but must sacrifice 4 ships of his choice due to attrition.
Imperial Fleet lost, but must sacrifice 5 ships.

So there you go. If you want Ultra Macro and you want to take the fun out of it, just use the Fleet Composite system! =)