Author Topic: OOC Chat  (Read 862519 times)

Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1740 on: December 18, 2012, 01:58:51 AM »
Alrighty Hale, Dem and I were talking and a point was brought up about when a tractor beams UCR loss takes effect. As using TBs to destroy a ships UCR is an effective tactic that Dem just demonstrated, and both of us are unsure but both agree it should be immediate. Like if you can lock a ship on your post, its UCR is 1 on your post.

As its not covered at all in the rules, maybe we could add it, or perhaps have a discussion on the matter. Personally, like I said, I like it. I think it adds an entire new level of strategy to the game for the big ships to deal with the smaller ships running circles around them.

Edit: Err.. actually, now after going and actually looking at the rule I see it is covered. So I guess me and Dem are saying... perhaps it should be changed?

I guess the issue we are having comes into play as do tractor beams stop a non-disabled ship from being able to move. However I distinctly remember having this conversation and bringing up a massive physics lecture in mass, kinetic energy, and momentum, as well as threatened to use it as a weapon to destroy ships if we got into details of what happens when 2 opposing vessels pull on a tractor lock, and thats why it was left out. You can move me into a different grid space, but you cant stop me from moving back, only entering HS.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 02:09:36 AM by Ramano »

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1741 on: December 18, 2012, 05:17:46 AM »
I think it has to be as it is for the same reason we have return fire. Turns are "simultaneous". I also have thought before that the UCR penalty should only apply while defending, not while attacking. Theoretically a ship in tractors would still be able to get a shot off a the ship trapping it, wouldnt it? why would a Corvette suddenly be unable to fire any weapons at a pursuing ISD using is tractors?

Offline Dementat

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1742 on: December 18, 2012, 08:32:40 AM »
The UCR hit is due to the ship losing it's ability to maneuver and it's being slowed. Small ships have high UCR because of their maneuverability and speed, that was the idea behind UCR. I'm actually kinda fine with the way the rule is written. Where I have questions is this:

1) If you disable the ship that has you locked, creating insufficient hold, do you regain your UCR in the same post as said action? If the attacker locks tractor beams in his first attack post, but the UCR penalty doesn't take effect until the defender replies, should the opposite not also be true of breaking the lock?

2) Does sufficient hold prevent a ship from moving to another grid while locked, or simply reduce it's movement to 1 grid?
(\/)ighty RE

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1743 on: December 18, 2012, 08:42:03 AM »
Right this is why I just dont like tractor beams, it opens up too many gray scenarios :)

In 3 we need to think about how this will work better.

Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1744 on: December 18, 2012, 09:24:29 AM »
This is why I said at the very start of the game to just do away with them, and when you need to move something you just have the TBs you need so long as its friendly or disabled.

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1745 on: December 18, 2012, 09:56:38 AM »
This is the "Order of Operations" for Combat Tractor Beamage:

1. Unit A (UCR 3) attacks Unit B (UCR 4), and knocks its shields out. Unit A then engages tractor beams (Unit B = UCR 1).

2. Unit B returns fire will full UCR, and then, becomes effected by tractor beams.

The basic rule is: tractor beam effects always happen last to the unit effected by them. So NEXT ROUND, Unit A can take advantage of the newly reduced UCR. Since one 24-period is considered a single simultaneously-happening round, tractor beam effects always happen last.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:06:02 AM by GCW Hale »
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1746 on: December 18, 2012, 10:23:58 AM »
This is why I said at the very start of the game to just do away with them, and when you need to move something you just have the TBs you need so long as its friendly or disabled.

I would prefer this for simplicities sake.

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1747 on: December 18, 2012, 11:03:13 AM »
All in favor of amending Tractor Beams to be applicable only under Friendly or Disabled/Derelict conditions?
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Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1748 on: December 18, 2012, 11:37:57 AM »
If you read this already, just disregard, I misread what he wrote.

Yes, I am in favor of this amendment.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 11:40:10 AM by Ramano »

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1749 on: December 18, 2012, 11:54:11 AM »
All in favor of amending Tractor Beams to be applicable only under Friendly or Disabled/Derelict conditions?

concur
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1750 on: December 18, 2012, 12:29:48 PM »
yay

Offline Ramano

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1751 on: December 18, 2012, 05:50:32 PM »
Wait a second... did we just have a unanimous vote? Im not sure if I can stand for this, I might have to change my mind lmao!!

Offline Dementat

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1752 on: December 18, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »
Nay.

Tractor beams are an important tool to the ships that carry them. They have been used offensively throughout SW history. To take them away makes my Star Destroyers even more useless than they already are.
(\/)ighty RE

Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1753 on: December 18, 2012, 07:01:23 PM »
We're working on a better way to use Tractor Beams in GCW3. Current proposal is to have them simply reduce a Ship's Movement points to 0, thus keeping the Maneuver portion of their UCR intact.

If we can agree on a simple and effective solution to implement immediately, I'd be game.
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: GCW: OOC
« Reply #1754 on: December 18, 2012, 08:23:16 PM »
I wonder why in movies and in the books tractor beams aren't used more regularly? Thrawn used them to capture Luke's X-Wing (ultimately he broke free through trickery), and to grab an Assault Frigate that was trying to flank him at battle of Sluis Van - but why dont ISDs just tractor lock onto everything all the time? I can't find anything really on it.

Tractor beams seem to be used most often to to grab small craft, that much is for certain. Only Imperial Star Destroyers have ever been shown (at least in any book I've read) using them offensively against larger ships (that Assault Frigate is the biggest example that comes to mind).

The first problem with our rule is that the UCR goes to 1. This misrepresents its return fire towards the ship holding it. So my proposal would be that its UCR is 1 versus any target, but versus the ship holding it has 100% accuracy - but I am not a fan of wordy "if this then this but this if this" type rules.

"A ship held by tactor beams may return fire to the ship(s) holding it with 100% accuracy, regardless of respective UCRs. For all other purposes and scenarios, the locked ship's UCR is 1.

Example.
ISD locks all tractor beams on a Corvette.
Corvette returns fire (100% damage).
ISD fires on corvette (3 UCR v 1 UCR).
VSD moves into range and fires on corvette (4 UCR v 1 UCR)
Corvette fires on VSD (1 UCR v 4 UCR).

Thoughts?