Author Topic: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)  (Read 15122 times)

Offline SWSF Eidolon

  • Space Pope
  • Administrator
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 2,249
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2024, 08:09:34 PM »

I think maybe it's all been intentionally kind of clumsy to this point.  The nod to it being

When Qimir asked Mae, paraphrase when he's choke holding her, "didn't you know the whole time it was me? deep down in there?"



Darth Q speaks of a history of persecution already by the jedi, if he is not tied to the Witches somehow maybe a hidden secret boy from the two mothers experiemnts at creating life, or somehow rescues mae as a girl yet from there?  Or then he was part of another community of unorthodox force users who met the same fate at the hands of the Jedi perhaps?  He doesn't claim the sith mantle himself, so he just sees himself as a renegade using the force according to his rules.  But how did he get so powerful in hiding up until now if he does not himself have a Master?


He calls Jecki, 'It' right after he kills her.  Is it just an insult and would have been said if she were human, or is it personal and because she was not?  Or possibly he speaks of her as It as a Jedi.  Later he snaps Yords neck pretty effortlessly  That is some It treatment...



Going back now and watching Ep II where Osha/Jedi use him to trap Mae and he cooperates (now we know manipulates).makes him seem much more sinister.  Is funny he says to them when the spring on him 'please don't do that memory wipe thing or whatever you do to me'.  Is that an MIB reference or is there some other instance of jedi wiping memories of people in canon?



Is interesting when Sol asks him why risk revealing himself he says he wants a pupil.  But he does not see himself as a Sith, sooo, why does he want a pupil if not to use a tool to help him acquire and grow his power on a galactic scale?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 08:11:43 PM by SWSF Eidolon »
~J
SWSF 'til Death

Offline Syren

  • Queen of the Holodrama
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 1,896
  • That bitch.
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2024, 11:22:05 AM »
I liked this ep, although the pacing/scene cutting still kills me.

Some thoughts:

Love me some Star Wars critters. I told my husband I would have made friends with them and he was like oh you would not, you would have slipped on one of those rocks because you were wearing completely inappropriate shoes and screamed at the ocean and scared them away. Which, fair. He knows me pretty well.

If this aired on HBO that bathing scene would have been a hell of lot more exciting but I suppose we already got full-frontal with HotD this week so I forbear. This episode does a great job of outlining the 'seduction' aspect of the dark side. Anakin was "seduced" and not even that subtly but Qimir hits the right notes with Osha and you can see each one makes her consider things. Or reconsider them. I also think Osha would make a much better acolyte because Mae's motivation is so one-note. Osha has a lot of nuance to her grief and anger which makes her much more susceptible to exploitation and manipulation. Then, when she is in just the right place emotionally, she finds out what really happened on Brendok and boom - one dark side acolyte coming right up!

Hearing cortosis spoken aloud made me feel a certain kind of way. Gratifying, in some sense, because it is a EU/Legends concept, now made canon.

Sol just needs to spit it out. Whatever it is, and it is likely cringe and incriminating, he needs to unburden himself.

Is it just me or is Vernestra acting super sus? Lightwhip is cool but...Qimir's injuries don't look like saber slashes to me. And how old is he really? He implied "a very long time ago" but I suppose that is subjective. Is that like 20 years or 200 years? Still waiting on his former Jedi/Sith master to show up here any minute now...after we get a flashback to what really happened on Brendok.

Ultimately, all the concepts and characters are cool but I am struggling with the execution being as compelling as it could be (or I want it to be). However, I am open to the fact that there are many ways to tell a story and can appreciate that aspect despite anything else.
Syren

Offline Medivh

  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 707
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2024, 12:09:36 PM »

Totally agree - I liked the scenes with Qimir and Osha in this episode.
The breathing in the mask had a nice touch of ominous/foreboding recall. I haven't decided if it was too over the top, or just right.
My biggest problem is we don't really know enough about Osha (or Mae) to understand that anger.  We know Osha left the Jedi, but her supposed "failure" is unclear, so her anger at said failure is unclear as well

Yay cortosis!

And good call - that mark on Qimir's back looks more like a whip mark than a saber blade mark.
I can't stand Sol.  Agree - just spit it out already.  The show is too purposefully holding off the answer to what really happened, and it ruins so much, being so forced.

Because, by the time they tell us the answer, I think we'll stop caring.
([][:][][][DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Medivh
SWSF: Legacy of the Force
May the Force be with you

Offline SWSF Eidolon

  • Space Pope
  • Administrator
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 2,249
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2024, 01:59:20 PM »
  Is the whole series a canon confirmation though or do any of the characters have greater and longer significance to the later story beyond a historically far removed feeler?

  The twins being Born of the Force should ultimately have some unique story value still, otherwise that is a completely wasted major point.

  But also by Qimir saying "a very long time ago", this to me feels like a tie somehow to the Darth Plagueis tale.


wookiee canon tab
"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life. He had such a knowledge of the dark side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying."―Sheev Palpatine


wookiee canon tab
While training Sidious, Plagueis taught him that two Sith were required for their perilous machinations. So, if they worked together in accordance to the [color=var(--theme-link-color)]Rule of Two[/iurl], with one of them serving as a bait for the [color=var(--theme-link-color)]dark side of the Force[/color] and the other as a vessel, they would succeed in acquiring the ability to harness the full power of the dark side and rule immortal for ten thousand years.[color=var(--theme-link-color)][[/iurl][/font][/size][/color][/font][/size][/color]



  Qimir calling for Power of Two as opposed to Rule of Two is maybe something different then.  Reading through some Wookiee articles I got on this one


https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_dyad

Seems like a good summary of everything thats going on at the grander level here.



But Sol needs to confess.  Vernestras whip and Qimirs scar shape seem obvious link to come to the open. 

But perhaps Osha and Mae come together to defeat Qimir and form Force Dyad.  Jedi do some soul searching in after math, Sol goes on trial if not killed yet by Q, O or M.  Probably in all their struggle he is first to go.



I dunno where the Qimir > Plagueis tie could come unelss Qimir has a master who is Plagueis.


Osha/Mae born of Force, "to create life" according to tale of plagueis, Qimirs "a very long time" and "The Power of Two" quotes.  All the keys?




The bathing scenes sexuality was weird.  Maybe it was just the camera work when he walks out and the cut off being so blatant yet implied presence.  Also the line, "if you're not going to join me I'd like to put my clothes back on".  It was kinda sloppy almost all together.  Like too much like a real dude trying to get a woman naked in the water with him.

Give me some Han Leia ESB tension.  Peak eroticism.




Most important take away: Bazil is still the best part of this so far.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 02:07:38 PM by SWSF Eidolon »
~J
SWSF 'til Death

Offline EmperorSeverus

  • Nostalgia
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2024, 08:09:30 AM »
Disney has destroyed Star Wars.
EMPEROR SEVERUS
IMPERIAL GALACTIC EMPIRE - RESURRECTED

Offline SWSF Eidolon

  • Space Pope
  • Administrator
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 2,249
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2024, 04:04:52 PM »
I dunno, Jar Jar and Vader having built C3PO and immaculate force conception and Greedo shooting first and Han being scared of Jabba but stepping on his tail because it gets kids laughing, that all happened under George's latter visions before the House The Mouse Built took the reigns.

The executive creators under disney have taken A LOT of inspiration from Legends as we all knew it and consumed and tons from the WEG books as well.

Dave Filoni is a fan who worked toward and got his fan dream job.  I don't understand how anyone can openly consume Filoni wrttien material and feel wronged.


Andor was amazing.  R1 was great movie and strong OT tie/vibe.  Solo is aging well imo, I enjoy more every time I watch.  Bad Batch is good.  Ahsoka was cool.  Obi Wan was decent.  Mandalorian was of course a commercial hit and I thought it was good and the EU galaxy it depicted was sweet, just not my overall fav with the Mandalorian culture/struggle focus of the core.

Acolyte is ok.  Though, I'm growing puzzled by the era choice to invest the time and money in to it when New Jedi Order movies with Rey will fill the same product marketing premise which is get more kids to want to be jedi.  Im prejudiced anyway naturally that they went old history jedi stuff but used Marvels High Republic era inspiration instead of the old DH TOTJ stuff.  It's a bad feeler for how awesome those could be in close screen adaptations



Episode 7-9 of The Saga, not so much a fan, I will go with you there- they ruined the OT arc, but by same token R1 and the diirect run in to OT was way better than I-III for the sake of OT Purity but ranking all later materials.




But this was all expected anyways when Disney acquired.  There are some gems, take the good with bad.
~J
SWSF 'til Death

Offline EmperorSeverus

  • Nostalgia
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2024, 06:31:08 PM »
Han shooting second destroyed a character. For one scene. Disney has destroyed Star Wars period.

It's only a matter of time before the hero saving the galaxy is a man with lipstick and breast implants. And a boyfriend.

I'm done with Disney, and I canceled Disney+.
EMPEROR SEVERUS
IMPERIAL GALACTIC EMPIRE - RESURRECTED

Offline Syren

  • Queen of the Holodrama
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 1,896
  • That bitch.
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2024, 06:35:18 PM »
Heeeyyyy - that sounds more like personal bias than anything else. What material harm would such a character or story cause you? Not all stories are for or about or representative of your experience. That's cool, other people's stories still have value despite not being something you connect with. But by all means, do you.

Both Lucas and Disney have taken questionable creative swings but that's par for the course and should be expected for any creators and their interpretations and evolution of the source material. Not everything has resonated with me and I remember thinking that during the "special edition" re-releases how silly some of it seemed. Still, then I remembered how much Yoda's introduction and messing with Luke/R2 made me giggle as a kid. That shit was a riot! So, some of it is meant to be silly. Some serious, redefining, or even intentionally nebulous in the creator's quest to tell a story.

However, re: unique story value. It's a huge universe and a sweeping timeline. Not everything needs to connect to something larger, in my opinion. That was kind of the fun with Mando - set within but its own story and journey with other elements influencing their motives/decisions. I do like it when things add context to what we thought we knew or believed, as many of the new (shows at least) have done. Andor is the most compelling thus far in my opinion. The tension in that is palpable which adds dimension to what it took to rebel against the Empire, not all of it good or even entirely honorable. I didn't really get into the Clone Wars animated stuff but respect it for filling in those blanks since actually a lot of shit happened during that time. Rumor is the legends/questionably cannon entity known as the Abeloth will appear in Ashoka S2 which could really dive deeply into the esoteric nature of the force and how it manifests/how others interact with it. I like darting into creative corridors for a little adventure.

What I do know, for better or worse, Lucasfilm was an investment and investment needs return - that's, like, the core tenant of business. So, while I appreciate different creators as fans who get to tell their story, there will always be influence by the powers that be to profit from it. But to the fans, inside or outside of SW, success isn't always measured by commercial success but instead by how it captures our attention and imagination in this concept we all love so much.

Wonder how the Acolyte will wrap things up but interested to see what Hedland and team are looking to impart with this offering.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 06:42:37 PM by Syren »
Syren

Offline EmperorSeverus

  • Nostalgia
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2024, 06:56:58 PM »
Children's hospitals like Boston Children's perform double mastectomies on confused 14 and 15 year old girls who think they're boys when they're not and never will be. That is material harm, and it starts with a cult trying to add this **** to everything we watch. I'm not OK with doctors abusing human beings of any age, much less children. And I'm not OK with Disney telling kids it's normal and fun and cool. It's not normal and fun and cool. It's abusive AF.
EMPEROR SEVERUS
IMPERIAL GALACTIC EMPIRE - RESURRECTED

Offline Syren

  • Queen of the Holodrama
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 1,896
  • That bitch.
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2024, 08:14:42 PM »
Oof, big feelings!

I do not recall a character in this show, or any other Disney property, advocating for this or any other procedure. Acknowledging someone's existence or experience does not equate to coercing anyone to do anything. Besides, only one kind of story with only one kind of protagonist would be narratively boring. Variety is the spice, as they say. :-*
Syren

Offline SWSF Eidolon

  • Space Pope
  • Administrator
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 2,249
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2024, 10:16:34 PM »
Children's hospitals like Boston Children's perform double mastectomies on confused 14 and 15 year old girls who think they're boys when they're not and never will be. That is material harm, and it starts with a cult trying to add this **** to everything we watch. I'm not OK with doctors abusing human beings of any age, much less children. And I'm not OK with Disney telling kids it's normal and fun and cool. It's not normal and fun and cool. It's abusive AF.


Entertaining the concept, what is the actual effect and outcome?  on an individual and society level



Why is an issue relevant to 0.0001% of the citizen population so widely proliferated?  No one who wouldn't already want to do this at any age is going to go down that path, and if they do well ok, so what.  There are easily influenced simpletons walking around every town in this country that buy in to every pile of shit idea that fits their preconceived notions.  Go ahead and do that shit if you think it will make you happy.

The matter is really simply in allowing people of all sorts to feel accepted not influence anyone one way or another.

Even the vast majority of non-straight folks are not interested in taking medication to change themselves or undergo surgical procedures.  This is a tiny fraction of the alternate community even.



  This is an invented crisis seized upon by the right to weaponize 'the future of your children and your childrens children'.  The reality is this affects so marginally few people it matters absolutely zero to our daily lives or the future of our nation.  It is a talking point and a place to hang or swat away a moral cap but doesn't matter for anything material unless you are part of the marginal fringe it really does affect, in which case, why not let them do their thing?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 10:18:50 PM by SWSF Eidolon »
~J
SWSF 'til Death

Offline EmperorSeverus

  • Nostalgia
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2024, 12:05:02 AM »
@Eidolon: If you're saying that doctors mutilating the F out of confused boys and girls' genitals is not the only problem in the U.S., you're obviously right, there are a lot of other problems too, like homelessness, human trafficking, etc. The list goes on and on.

But if you're saying it's not a problem because it only affects a small percentage of the population, I don't take your point. Something like one in every 500 Americans is homeless. That's only 0.2% of the population or 650,000 people or so out of a total population of ~ 330 million. But I don't think anyone disagrees that homelessness is a problem. More than 300,000 children in North America have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and that diagnosis is typically followed by puberty blockers, opposite sex hormones, and surgery for things like double mastectomies, genital mutilation, and even hysterectomies. Tens of thousands of children.

The difference between this problem and other problems is that everyone seems to agree that things like homelessness and human trafficking are a problem. But when it comes to mutilating the F out of confused children, suddenly they are not only OK with the abuse, they're celebrating it.

As for your question ("why not let them do their thing?"), I think you have to differentiate between adults and minors. As far as I'm concerned, it should be illegal for a doctor to mutilate the F out of any human being's genitals, of any age. Doctors are supposed to help people, not abuse them. But I hope you can at least see that children are not adults. Children cannot consent to irreversible destruction of their genitals and other irreversible damage that is being done to them.

@Syren: I respect the fact that you welcome dialogue rather than trying to shut it down. I think our country needs more people like you in both parties who know that talking to each other about complex things (whatever the issue is) is the right way to go, not refusing to listen to people with different views. That said, I think it's wrong to promote LGBT content to kids, and I stand by that.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2024, 12:30:19 AM by EmperorSeverus »
EMPEROR SEVERUS
IMPERIAL GALACTIC EMPIRE - RESURRECTED

Offline SWSF Eidolon

  • Space Pope
  • Administrator
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 2,249
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2024, 10:13:36 PM »

 I'm saying its inflated in to a large societal dilemma when it doesn't affect the vast majority of us at any age.  It's weaponized as an ideology when I don't think promoting acceptance of diversity is an ideology so much as basic human decency.

 When percent of the 300k you cite (google says 121k per Reuters investgation from 2017-2021 published oct 2022) are happy with the outcome of their treatments vs those who feel duped or wronged?  That would be the more telling statistics I think.

 I just don't buy in to the idea that if you show a straight kid enough gay material they will start experimenting with gay ideas and acts.  I mean we've probably all known a gay kid that was not self-aware yet right?  So is the right course of action to shame the feminine tendancies out of them or to let them do them and make them strong confident individuals?






Homelessness is a blight problem but beyond that, what are you supposed to do about people choosing to do drugs before paying their bills or not knowing how to manage their finances and mortgaging homes they'll never be able to sustain on or not being able to conform and work a job at all?  There are plenty of good paying jobs for people who want them.

~J
SWSF 'til Death

Offline EmperorSeverus

  • Nostalgia
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2024, 11:03:15 PM »
About homelessness, I think there is a lot more that can be done, but I don't want to get off topic.

For argument's sake, even if you could say "what are you supposed to do about people choosing to do drugs instead of paying their bills?" or something, I think if you ask the same question about abusing confused kids -- "what are you supposed to do about people mutilating the F out of confused kids' genitals?" -- the answer is simple: don't mutilate the F out of confused kids' genitals, don't celebrate the idea of mutilating the F out of confused kids' genitals, make it illegal to mutilate the F out of confused kids' genitals. Love them and protect them.

These are vulnerable children, and we're talking about sterilizing them, mutilating their bodies, and making them lifelong medical patients. It's evil.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2024, 11:12:35 PM by EmperorSeverus »
EMPEROR SEVERUS
IMPERIAL GALACTIC EMPIRE - RESURRECTED

Offline Syren

  • Queen of the Holodrama
  • SWSF Member
  • Posts: 1,896
  • That bitch.
Re: The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2024, 11:59:42 AM »
Discussion is good - in life and democracy.

However, this may not be the best venue for this discussion. I would question the use of the word 'promote' as that and others have been tactfully employed whenever anyone appears in a medium others take issue with. I will say, again, that acknowledgment of someone's existence or experience - through a character or storyline - does not necessarily mean a creator or corporate conglomerate is advocating for or against anything. The inclusion of different types of stories with various types of characters is generally a good thing as it adds depth and perspective. Exposure to such things does not influence who someone ultimately becomes but can make traditionally marginalized or maligned groups feel seen and heard through tales and adventures that include people like them. I am sure we can all agree that has been true for us at some point in our lives. On the corporate side, appealing to emerging audiences and demographics is a valid business strategy and one that has lucrative potential. It's not even a new concept as companies have been at it for years. If it doesn't appeal to you, don't watch it. If you don't like it, don't do it/don't buy it. Not everything is for or about you. There is something to be said for recognizing something that doesn't resonate with you and letting it be. 

But, let us get back to the purpose of this thread: The Acolyte.

With this latest episode, I heard echoes of Obi-Wan's words in my head: "...from a certain point of view."

After all, motives are driven, in part, by one's perceptions and experiences. There was, from what I gather, an inference to High Republic canon, e.g., the hyperspace disaster (in which Vernestra lost her master in, I believe) which led the Jedi to this world. From there, a lot of assumptions are made - from all parties - which lead to the titular choices.

Some thoughts:

Sol seems weirdly drawn to Osha. I mean, sure, he doesn't have a padawan but do they tell us why? Maybe he's a creeper or, more likely, struggles with attachment issues which manifests with Osha almost like an obsession. Having a padawan is probs a bad idea if he gets so bent emotionally - could be things from his own past he cannot let go of or is trying to compensate for and the council is like, no, bro. As far as getting her to leave with them, he sees what he wants to see and acts accordingly which leads to his killing Mother Aniseya. It could be interpreted as defense since it may have been unclear what she was doing but still seemed rather rash for the Jedi. Also, he previously said he watched Mae fall when in reality, he let her fall to save Osha. Certain points of view and all. He was so convinced they were in danger (Mae mentioning the whole sacrifice thing didn't help) but they acted without ascertaining first and failed to show any restraint that would prevent violence or loss of life. The Jedi were messy af here.

Force possession? Here for it. That manifestation of power was badass.

Indara is powerful, so much so that she decimates the coven via the psychic link while trying to save Kelnacca. Wild. Her willingness to obscure the truth about what happened certainly lends to the theory that the Jedi are their own worst enemies and likely why they were so unprepared for literally anything. Their own ranks were covering shit up left and right over the years to spare their reputation and justify their methods. Hate padawan Torbin (Oh, Tommen) but Indara is the team leader and showed a spectacular lack of control over the group.

Mother Korril was definitely an instigator here - also based on assumptions and point of view - but did we see her body? Is homegirl still around? Did she train The Stranger?

Once Osha finds out the truth, to the dark side she will fall!

Lastly, not sure they can wrap this up in a single episode in a satisfying way given how disjointed the execution has felt (at least to me) across the season. I do like the comparisons between ep 3 and ep 7 but unsure spending two episodes on flashbacks without a stronger present-day story anchor was the wisest creative choice - but willing to see how they cap it off.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 04:36:48 PM by Syren »
Syren