GCWIII -- New Combat Model? Let's Mock!

[SWSF Hale]

I think the best solution is to have the GM be the dice roller, especially for events like scanning, intercepting smugglers, etc. If there is a neutral party doing the dice rolls, then they'll be honest and prevent players from manipulating the system.

[gallpizi]

Hmmm. I am torn. I think making the GM responsible gives a lot of work/puts a lot of pressure on the GM.

Locking posts from modifications could also work but I am not sure that is the answer either. What if I have a glaring typo I want to see fixed? Do I need to ask permission?

One way to make things easier could be to come up with damage points per Arc.

Then a roll of 1 100 sided die to then tell the percentage of damage that that bow arc did.

Example: Bow of ISD does 580 damage.

Rolled 1d100 : 43, total 43

[gallpizi]

I HAVE IT!!!!!!!!

We make a seperate folder where only dice rolls are recorded. No modificatons allowed. You do your dice rolls for percentage etc and then insert that into our regular SL posts.

[SWSF Hoppus]

I'm reading the Star Wars Saga Edition core rule book to get some ideas about the RPG aspects using dice.

I think what we know is however we do it, something streamlined and end of turn orientated is ideal, in a manner that it won't interrupt the flow of the players posting.

I invision dice being used also in character movements, decisions, and interaction with the sector - for example imagine the Seswenna campaign involved the Imperial task force being sent to the capitol to investigate a recent piracy/smuggling ring bust up; there would be posts with characters meeting the governor, investigating and finding out shit that moves the story forward... etc.. and in certain key interactions, dice would be rolled based on the character's abilities - maybe effecting if they notice a clue or if their charm works on the locals etc etc, which shapes the details of the story. I think its key that this be a part of the game - with combat coming every now and again - either on small scale (characters attacked), medium scale (a small raid with walkers and troops on a warehouse or some such), or larger scale (all out space battles and the like).

[gallpizi]

I can see that working nicely.

What help do you need from me?

[SWSF Hale]

Honestly, the last thing I want to do is manage 2-3 firing arcs for 5-10 units, and rolling dice for each of them. Combat should be streamlined, and math-based, not dice-based. I agree that dice should be utilized for non-combat actions that directly impact the game's story. If that's the case, we can keep dice-rolls limited and officiated by GM/3rd Party player.

How I envision it... suppose we have:
Seswenna Sector
1. Sullust
2. Eriadu
3. Omwat
4. Clak'dor VII
5. Xagobah
6. Shadda-Bi Boran
7. Arbra

Every month or as soon as an event is completed, the GM could roll a 1d7, which will elect one of the systems to experience a random event. That random event could be based on a metric with different pre-scripted events (that a d10 roll would select). For example:

1. Pirate Raid, 2. Rebel Uprising, 3. NPC Rebel Hero (maybe some Rebel sympathizer with a full-blown smuggling circuit) crucial to the progress of the game arrives in the system, 4. NPC Imperial Hero (maybe some Grand Moff) arrives in the system to oversee progress (bringing with him a surge of defense units), 5. Large Scale Naval Battle, 6. Small Scale Naval Battle, 7. Large-Scale Ground Battle, 8. Small Scale Ground Battle, 9. Diplomatic Event, 10. Primary Story Event

So, here we go:

System:

Rolled 1d7 : 1, total 1

Event:

Rolled 1d10 : 5, total 5

[SWSF Hale]

Okay, so Battle of Sullust would be the first game event!

At this point, we'd need some sort of victory condition. Perhaps through the entire Lost Campaigns game, players are vying for Influence. Outcomes of events determine the amount of Influence a faction obtains. After a certain amount is reached, the game ends and that faction effective wins the Sector. Rinse and repeat.

Obviously, a new and different creative story will be required for every Sector, such that events aren't just pre-scripted random encounters but actually do something for the game and the characters involved.

So what I suggest is this: we work backwards. Instead of coming up with factions and combat systems, we come up with characters and then design an appropriate game around them.

[gallpizi]

Using that logic I am doing an Imperial Admiral.

[SWSF Eidolon]

DICE?! Excuse me a minute, I need to find a dark isolated corner to handle something. . .

[SWSF Eidolon]

[Disclaimer:  All just my opinion - I am firm beleiver in Die Rolls to add randomness to any strategy combat game.  Static numbers alone irk me as absolutely everything becomes predictable and eventually routine patterns form. For myself, keepign track of how many dice need to be rolled is a much better option than mental management of large value numbers.]


  OK.  Here's an idea that is closely taken from how dice and actions work in X-Wing Miniatures. . .

 
   You have Attack Dice and Defense Dice.  Both are 8 sided with slightly different markers.

   For attack dice you have the following. . .

   4 faces are Blast markers, which are Hits (assign #s 1-4)  2 faces are Eyeballs, which are Focus icons (assign #s 5 & 6), 2 faces are blank (assign #s 7 & 8)

   For defense dice you have the following. . .

   4 faces are squiggly lines, which denote evades and cancel out hit die at 1:1 ratio (assign #s 1-4).  2 faces are Eyeballs which are Focus icons (assign #s 5 & 6). and 2 faces are blank (assign #s 7 & 8)

 

    Hits vs Evades are self explanatory.  Blanks count for nothing. Focus' can work 1 of two ways, A Focus is an ACTION.  (each ship may commit to 1 action, once per round, PRIOR to attacking).  A Focus action can be used to help your Attack or Your Defense.  If you've commited to a Focus before your attack, then when you roll your attack die, if you roll a Focus icon/#, you can spend that committed Focus action to change any Focus icons/#s you roll and change them to either a Hit or an Evade (depending which end of the attack you're on).


    So every uncancelled Hit is of course 1 Hit.  This is getting away from larger Hit POints and individual weapons values.  Cuts down on some calculating for the player, instead of raw numbers it makes all numbers more strategical considerations.  The bar is set at X-Wings (3Atk, 2 Def, 5 HP) and TIE Fighters (2 Atk, 3 DEF, 3 HP).

   There are then additional actions ships can perform obviously.  Some are unique to only certain ships, others are somewhat generic.  For instance, almost all TIE craft have EVADE as an action.  Most choose from either FOCUS or EVADE.  Commiting to an Evade gives you basically 1 Free Evaded Hit before any die rolling.  Focus however can be used for both Offense or Defense, so you have to choose the risk v reward.

   Other ACTIONS are Barrel Rolls (mroe complex to utilize here as it pertains to firing arcs in terms of usefulness really).  Target Locks also feature prominently especialyl for Rebel Ships.  Target Locks ACTIONS allow you to reroll any number of Attack Die 1 time.



    Another easily transplantable (depending on scale) concept are Pilot Skills.  In X-wing mini it ranges from 1-9.  Perhaps we'd benefit to keep it a smaller scale, something like 1-3.  Pilot Skills determine when in the ORder of Battle a ship moves and/or attacks.  In the movement phase, Lower Pilot Skills move first.  In the Attack Phase, higher pilot skills attack first.


The phases of a round for X-Wing Mini are. . .

   Secretly Choose Maneuvers and Place Indicator Face Down  ->  All players reveal all dials once all have choosen  ->  Ships are moved in ascending order according to Pilot Skill  ->  After each individual ship moves, it may commit to an action  ->  Once all ships move and choose actions the combat phase begins with the Highest Pilot skill attacking first

[SWSF Eidolon]

1.  Onboard with idea of limited scope applied through shifting campaigns i.e. GCW TLC.  I think if that mode and the idea of Time Markers for events is adopted, a general idea for duration of a campaign is worth considering.  3 Months perhaps per Campaign Start/End date?  And if a Final battle happens to extend past deadline, well the Battle goes to completion as I'd presume no matter what we do, Battles will still take a little time to sort out.


2.  I love dice.  I love dice in any aspect.  Now that we finally have a dice roller, I'm highly averse to concept of dice not playing some role in combat at least to add chance.  I've hated large static values since dawn of time.  Dice cut to the chase and cut out certain aspects of calculating.  Rather than calculating and multiplying large values, you are simply comparing values on a handful of dice, many of which render each other null.  The numerical strategy then is simply finding ways to increase your Attack Dice/Defense Dice and modify them rather than plugging and chugging raw values.


3.  If we are using GM, I'd like to see GM roles limited so that it is a post someone occupies only ancillary to their Player role.  Otherwise with a full fledged GM with lots of responsibility you lose some of the value of the activitiy of another player.  GM can wind up being spread pretty thin to handle multiple NPC interactions at a given time.  Unless it's more of an actual facilitating role to an RPGish game which might work out fine.

4.  IMO battle mechanics should be centered around idea of smaller skirmish engagements.  It's just a personal preference but I find it to be a more manageable scale with much more reward when combined with an intrguing unpredictable system.



DIT - I really don't think you can go wrong with just picking a planet/star system, and having an ISD that arrives at the start of the game.  Script in the intro competiting entites planetside, outright civil war, one faction anti-Imperial, perhaps dwindling resource returns for the Empire?  Anything along those lines, anything that would attract one of the Empire's most fearesome warships and influence to the area more directly.  It's a great starting point for any character a player would choose, be it someone in the populace that is otherwise just living their life until that day changed their destiny, be it an active rebel cell, be it an Imperial admiral, a smuggler waiting at one of the local capital cities spaceports to depart with his illicit cargo, and now he's either stuck there or trying to get out without attracting attention.  (i.e. if the dice rolls help him get out, maybe his next job brings him back, this time smuggling in weapons for the rebel cell?).   Limitless.

   Should the Rebel Cell ever somehow destroy the ISD.  Well that's an epic story and battle moment for everyone to share on somehow.  And I'm sure Imperial response would be interesting.  That or maybe that is the End Game for that Campaign.

   Just thoughts.

[gallpizi]

I am on board with everything except for small scale. I have always and will always like the larger scale as long as we make it manageable.

[SWSF Hale]

1. I know GCW: Rise of the Empire has been sluggish as of late, but I think that idea of a character-driven collective story is what is appealing (even if only a handful have written SLs for it). So personally I would like us all to maybe talk about what character angle they want to pursue (assuming a Post Hoth timeline perhaps), and that can help us collective design and implement a system where an Imperial Admiral has just as much weight on the story as a lone Rebel smuggler.

2. Earlier in this thread the idea of collective flotillas/armies seemed popular, so I think if we pursued the composite unit model, it would be rewarding, particularly because it can be down or up-scaled no matter what the battle is.

3. Dice are good, but let's not go dice crazy with everything.

4. Presumably, this would be a sort of game where out of 7 systems, the total Imperial presence in the sector would include 3 ISDs, 7~9 VSDs, and 20~30 support ships (Lancers, Carracks, etc). It's enough power to dominate a few systems outright, or simply maintain a general presence throughout. On the other hand, I see the Rebel Alliance as having a numerically bigger but less damaging fleet: 1 MC80 (possibly acting as a mobile HQ for the Sector), 4~6 DREADs/RAFs, dozens of NEBs and CORVs, 20+ support ships (bulk transports, oversized aux, etc.). Which brings me to my next point...

5. If you lose a big ship... that sucks for you! Having finite resources at the start of the game adds that much more of a challenge for the duration of the Campaign. On the same side of the coin, very limited income could be rewarded based on player actions (securing trade networks between planets, either through Free or Black Markets for example). Major construction projects will be "off site". This makes the overall game about expanding your economy and influence in the sector for your faction or for yourself. Raids are about money, battles are about politics.

That's all I have for now...

[SWSF Hoppus]

I like the idea of being in the same game/world/battle and maybe being a Fringe guy in a Freighter. I won't be gaming against 3 ISDs but skirmishing certain TIE fighters or whatever while trying to get away. Could this work at the same time as the larger scale battle? Maybe for players in a micro situation, its the same battle, only they interact with a small part of it...

[SWSF Eidolon]

    I like the basic premise of character driven aspects.  So in that spirit the rules and entire game should be built around best embracing what we all want to do.

    Gal wants to see a fleet, Hop wants to smuggle and fringe,  I want to do moderate scale ground combat tooth and nail Rebel Alliance vs Empire shit, like squads, platoons, companies etc. 

     What do you want to see to be playable Hale or are you more interested in GMing and facilitating only?

    I'm not entirely convinced that 7 star systems is a limited enough scope to do all those angles adequately and keep the character driven story interaction together and affecting each other.  I could be wrong, just not convinced.  Just to go on record my personal preference and suggestion would be to finally focus a game around a single star system. 

    A single main planet that goes from a small burning ember of Rebellion to a full fledged conventional military battle that seems to last for the entire Galactic Civil War.  A battle for a world that becomes synonymous for the War between the Rebellion and Empire.  A battle that the Empire dare not simply bombard the world to dust, but to individually pluck out each traitorous heart as an example.  A symbolic story encompassing locking of horns between the might of both. . .goose bumps! ;p

    At that point no matter what character angle you take its interesting as hell, and everyone is involved in whatever niche their writing drive may take them.  I'd be willing to manipulate the entire Rebellion ground constituency in the engagement, but not if it's that mob up in a couple of spaces or one space and throw them all together type of battling.  I'd rather make the whole Battle a microcosm of the Galactic Civil War that happens in skirmishes across vast territory but only covered a small section at a time.  Itd have to be all sorts of maps that only constitute small regions of the world here and there so that battles aren't everything everyone has at this place at once.  Can help make these if adopted.

   You could totally keep the scale of fleets that are described to fill Gal's fix.  Just that presumably only one faction has a fleet that is a more full time presence.  Maybe it's a system of getting driven off, and returning later replenished to try and retake blockade position?  You could keep Events, which sound like an awesome idea in basis with the die rolls to determine what.  If no one interested in taking helm of a Rebel fleet, then you could make an event that a Rebel fleet shows up to try and break blockade, GM controls it for battle.  If Rebs win and Empire driven off, Gal is in retreat story mode and working up his way back with a fleet again.  Maybe he has some angles to play little covert Imperial strikes and things of that nature (if he wanted) ?

   Rambling.  Just saying that to better accomodate what everyone wants to do I think it's easier to focus on a single star system.  And there's my convoluted argument for it

   Unless there are multiple people out there who are going to be doing large scale engagements in a game angle?  As I've read thus far only Gal has expressed such interest.


  Additions -  We can still make it a game of controlling resources, or focus more specifically on RPGish aspects of character maturation.  Whatever really people want to see, just centered on one star system (can be few planets if wanted whole system, just one central which is the main stage?, I will happily make, even research and use a canon star system if desired, Core world perhaps?)  You could either use a system of building up resource over a period of time to commit to engage the enemy in a battle.  Like if I'm controlling rebel army, to launch some offensives, I have to smuggle in so many shipments of weapons or something if the Imp fleet is currently in blockade, if the Reb fleet were in blockade, I could launch attacks whenever and wherever on the planet I wanted.  I Imp fleet is in blockade, maybe I can only launch attacks adjacent to areas I already have a majority control of.