OOC Chat

[SWSF Hoppus]

Here here! Jay for class president!

[SWSF Hale]

Here is a full list of "Barren Worlds" that existed at the start of the game. If there is a single settlement like a Delta Multipurpose Base, the planet can still be classified as "Barren" for all intents and purposes because there is no planetary defense force or government that can be either Conquered or engaged in Diplomacy with... which is a HUGE difference compared to every other planet in this galaxy. So, for all the systems below, players can exit hyperspace and set up shop AT WILL. For every other planet.. I expect there to be BLOOD (I was a little disappointed about Bespin, in all honesty. There should've been combat).

This isn't "cheating the rules", it's simply operating within the parameters of the rules and expanding onto another planet outside of the parameters of Conquest or Diplomacy. Case closed?

Hoth
Boz Pity
Dagobah
Dathomir
Roon
Rhen Var
Yavin IV
Korriban
Toprawa
Myrkr
Alderaan Asteroids
Ilum
Iridonia
Dantooine
Ithor

Oh, and before you go quoting Missions, try reading ALL of them first:

EXPANSION (Any Faction)
Mission Requirements: None.
1. Take your Fleet to a Barren World.
2. Once you move your ship to the C-Ring, the System will be fully alerted to your presence and will send out a galaxy wide information report (x2 hyperspace). You are now free to move about the System and engage neutral units at your leisure. As the "Mission GM" you will now take direct control of the PDF forces and post for them as you would defend your own world.
3. Once combat has begun, refer to the following time-table below for mission results. Players are required to write storyline post in addition to fulfilling the other requirements of each Milestone in order to complete this mission fully.
Milestone #1: Destroy all units that make up the PDF (if any) and deploy your units to the Ground to build a new facility.
Milestone #2: Once a facility has been completed, the system can now be declared under control of your faction. News of this exploit will travel the galaxy at x1 hyperspace.

That being said, I'm voiding Ramano's post. Dem must complete the Expansion milestones per the rules. NO SURRENDERS!

[Dementat]

Myrkr is listed as a barren world, thus, this is an Expansion mission. Plus, I was told by Hale that you can take a planet without following the mission rules, but that you would not receive any of the bonuses for doing so. Just the same, I'm going to raise that Delta Base via storyline anyways.

Edit: That is what Hale told me when I asked how Ramano was doing both a Diplomacy mission and a Conquest mission simultaneously with only 1 leader character. Bespin gave Ramano no building bonuses along the Conquest milestones.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Hale, Improper Conquest, Improper Expansion what's the diff? ;p  It's all been done in contrast to the written rules.

 Thank you for explanation however the matter is still unresolved in my opinion.  I'll let my complaint go after this, but I'd like to note. . .

 Expansion Milestone #1 for Expansion:  Destroy ALL PDF.

 Didn't Dantooine have a ground PDF facil, that per this requisite you'd have to destroy? before taking control of system, beginning constructions, and leaving?  Ground PDF was not destroyed at Bespin either, though that was a Conquest Mission but an infraction all the same.  This is a small but still significant amount of time both yourself and Ram got for FREE.

 If I'm mistaken in remembering a ground facility at Dantooine, then I am satisfied. Regarding that particular issue.

 I am satisfied with the explanation/Myrkr ruling and the verbal condemnation of Bespin record will suffice for future deterrent hopefully.

[SWSF Hale]

I've vocalized that I didn't expect Dantooine to surrender, nor was I happy with how Bespin turned out because I don't want surrendering to be the de facto response to hostilities. Then again, a Delta Base is nothing compared to an Alpha...and Dantooine was also listed as a Barren World.

Either way, if I see anymore surrendering of non-Barren Worlds, I'm going to void those posts and take over PDF to ensure bloodshed. If you want a free planet, grab a Barren one.

though that was a Conquest Mission but an infraction all the same.

Only at Bespin, Ramano was simply invading and annexing and he will not get any of the benefits that come along with Conquest. Since there was no Conquest Mission to begin with, there are no infractions.

[SWSF Eidolon]

though that was a Conquest Mission but an infraction all the same.

Only at Bespin, Ramano was simply invading and annexing and he will not get any of the benefits that come along with Conquest. Since there was no Conquest Mission to begin with, there are no infractions.

   Huh?  That is an option?  Is it written anywhere (apologies if so, I hadn't seen)?  Based on the presentation one should assume Conquest, Diplomacy and Expansion are the only ways to take over any planet.  Anything else is filling in gaps with presumption, which is the first step on the windy road of loophole gaming.

   Isn't "Conquest" a well defined form of Invasion?  I thought the purpose of Conquest WAS to fill the normal role of how we would simply move about and conquer systems in simming and instill a time line with it to enable people with less free time IRL to equally compete against people with more free time IRL?

   but this statement paints Conquest as intended to be a supplement to simply showing up and Invading like normal simming invasion has always gone?

   if that's the case, who's going to waste the 20-28 days to go through conquest?  I wouldn't.  I'm just going to show up and "Invade/Annex" a la Bespin.  You can expand twice as fast if you don't bother with the whole Conquest timeline and the little bit of bonus you get from it isn't enough to offset the increased pace, especially when you consider systems with bonus +KC income traits which presumably are gained through control of a whole system anyways.  So you're still benefiting more with the short cut Invade/Annex than you are with the long term Conquest process.  It seems in theory anyways.

   And I'm not trying to be a dick here, but in light of your explanations, I still honestly feel as though we are being gotten over on.

   You're ignoring the time constraints associated with having to confront the PDFs that "surrendered" at Dantooine.  Your own rules specifically state, for your Barren world Expansion on Dantooine, the PDF must be destroyed. It was not.  Because of this LACK of rule specified/required engagement, your Heroes/Ships were free to make moves and actions they would have otherwise not been free to do.

   Regarding regular INVASION (i.e. NOT Conquest)  where is this stated in the rules or implied?  Right nextt to the "Surrender" clause? ;p

[SWSF Hale]

Well what is it that you want here? Rules that define every possible way to take over a planet?

Conquest allows you to take over a planet and get some bonuses in the process. Cash bonus for kills, 1000 KC victory prize, and a Hero upgrade? Between those three bonuses you offset the loss of your units and gain some money to establish a permanent presence. The same can be said for Diplomacy.

If you don't want to go that route, then how are we going to handle "non-Mission planetary take overs"? For Barren Worlds, we have the Expansion Mission. For non-barren worlds, I figured writing up a mission wouldn't be necessary, but it looks like I'm going to have to so that if anyone is taking over a planet, it is covered under the rules with a defined process. As far as the "no surrendering" goes, that is implied by virtue of the other missions which state that the player must KILL the PDF.

And I'm not trying to be a dick here, but in light of your explanations, I still honestly feel as though we are being gotten over on.

Then what is your whole point of all this? Are you upset that players are taking over other systems at an alarming rate using non-Mission means? Conquest IS NOT the standard to which I am holding every other player when it comes to taking over a planet using hostile force. It is NOT some kind of procedure, it is NOT what everyone must do in order to take over a planet. Conquest is an OPTIONAL way to take over a planet IF the player wants the bonuses that come along with it.

Regarding Bespin, Ramano clearly did not state he was starting a Conquest Mission, therefore I was not going to hold him to each of those Milestones as mandatory objectives. Is this where your confusion was?

[SWSF Eidolon]

  My confusion is that my interpretation of how rules are presented and worded is that MISSIONS (i.e. Conquest, Diplomacy and Expansion) are ONLY means of acquiring more systems.  NO WHERE any place else in the rules is any other means stated (that i've found), so where is this idea of a basic invasion outside of Conquest coming from?  This is the first I've ever heard of it.  I was supposed to presume that outside of a clearly defined set of standards there's other non-mentioned methods?  Just checking but is there any kind of Non Mission Diplomacy I can engage in that isn't written that is maybe a little faster?
 
   If you honestly don't feel anything wrong in terms of benefiting by saving time through the stretching/bending/late revelation of rules has occurred, just leave it the way it is, because I don't want anyone to take a penalty they don't think they deserve and breed OOC resentment.

   You clearly have a different interpretation of rules being the person who wrote them, and apparently there are some voids between what you wrote and what is in your mind, i just don't see how I'm supposed to presume any of that.  We can agree to disagree though.  I've said my final peace and for me the issue is closed as far as I'm concerned for sake of focus on progress.

[SWSF Hale]

This should cover all of our bases, yes?

INVASION (Any Faction)
Purpose: An Invasion is a fast-track version of the Conquest Mission that allows players to rapidly take over a system using military force but without the prolonged Milestone requirements. Players simply need to show up, destroy, and plant their faction's flag.
Mission Requirements: None
1. Take your Fleet to a non-Barren World.
2. Once you move your ship to the C-Ring, the System will be fully alerted to your presence and will send out a galaxy wide information report (x2 hyperspace). You are now free to move about the System and engage neutral units at your leisure. As the "Mission GM" you will now take direct control of the PDF forces and post for them as you would defend your own world.
3. Once combat has begun, refer to the following time-table below for mission results. Players are required to write storyline post in addition to fulfilling the other requirements of each Milestone in order to complete this mission fully.
Milestone #1: Destroy all units that make up the PDF (if any) and deploy your units to the Ground to build a new facility.
Milestone #2: Once a facility has been completed, the system can now be declared under control of your faction. News of this exploit will travel the galaxy at x1 hyperspace.


ACCESSION TREATY (Any Faction)
Purpose: The Accession Treaty is a fast-track version of the Diplomacy Mission that seeks to add a new system to a faction without complex negotiations or arrangements made by a visiting or hosting faction. Diplomats simply will meet with the planetary leaders, engage in minor talks, and then the system will convert to the visiting faction.
Mission Requirements: A "Diplomat" which can be either a Leader, Ambassador, or Jedi Knight
1. Take your Fleet to a Barren or non-Barren World.
2. Once you move your ship to the C-Ring, the System will be fully alerted to your presence and will send out a galaxy wide information report (x2 hyperspace). You are now free to move about the System and engage in diplomatic negotiations at your leisure.
Milestone #1: Bring your Diplomat to the surface and begin negotiations with a storyline.
Milestone #2 [5 Days]: The host system signs a Peace Treaty with your faction and agrees to disarm its planetary defense forces so that your faction can provide protection. All space units and platforms are scrapped by your faction for 25% of their base cost. Storyline required.
Milestone #3 [10 Days]: The host systems signs a full Accession Treat with your faction and becomes a member system. With exception to some planets (check with Hale), all ground units and facilities will be scrapped by your faction for 25% of their base cost. Storyline required.

[SWSF Hoppus]

Again I have to agree with jay on all this.

Jay and I see the rules as, simply, what you are allowed to do and how to do it.

You are speaking as if they are rules on what you are not allowed to do.

There's a big difference. If I come up with some whack idea that the rules don't specifically prohibit, then I can do it (you really want this door opened?) with your interpretation.

But apart from that, this is the real issue we're grinding on here:

Jay and I had assumed the MISSIONS for conquests were how things were handled regarding expanding to new worlds in any form (and hence everyone waiting for them to be published to start moving).

In the end, I don't really care. But if we are going to play the game lets respect the game and play it by the rules. I'm not saying anyone intentionally tried to skip things quickly - Ramano is the one surrendering to everyone, anyway - but having heard Jay's argument and his points, can't you see how there is no upside for a sim who cannot just use violence to expand (and stay in character)?

I think it is clear: By using violence in a "non-mission" takeover of a system, things can go blindingly fast (instant conquest because outcome is inevitably in attacker's favor, a la Ramano) while anyone stuck with Diplomacy has to go through a 28 day process plus lose ALL of the units on the surface and orbit and rebuild from scratch. There's a huge difference here!

But now, returning to your post Hale and how you read the rules:

Conquest is an OPTIONAL way to take over a planet IF the player wants the bonuses that come along with it.

...does this mean I can do diplomacy as a "non-mission" and just have Ramano post "Hey sign us up with the NR!" when I arrive and I am willing to give up the "bonuses" of the DIPLOMACY mission?

By your logic, it looks to be fair game. It would be faster and better for me - the 1000 KC bonus has to be spent to build an NR OPS base anyway, and I lose ALL OF THE FACILITIES AND DEFENSES after successful diplomacy and have to rebuild. Surrender/conquest/expansion keeps all units and facilities and has immediate dominion, instantly.

I don't think you need to write any new rules. I think you just need to enforce the perfectly clear rules that you have already posted, instead of saying "well, it's ONE way you can do it, IF YOU WANT TO, but you can do whatever else occurs to you too, with no bonuses"

[SWSF Hale]

I don't know if my post before yours covers anything, but between Conquest/Expansion/Invasion and Diplomacy/Accession Treaty... there is no other way to take over a planet now.

Let's also make one more thing clear: the use of violence will always trump the use of diplomacy, so let's not enter into a debate about how violence and non-violence should be "equal" means of taking over a system when clearly they aren't. Yes, violence will go blindingly fast. This is how Hitler took over Europe and how a well-equipped military will always have the advantage when being aggressive as opposed to passive-defensive one engaging in diplomacy.

Again, I believe now that with the Accession Treat and the Invasion missions added to the rules set, there is no more room for misinterpretation. There might be confusion, granted, but if anybody wants to take over a system they will have to do so using one of the Missions.

Did I miss anything else? If so, I am more than willing to edit the rules to make them more rational. It might be the fact that I am an ENFJ that I don't see the rules in any sort of legalistic light, but more so as guidelines, but I am more than willing to take into account everyone's consideration if they need to be tweaked. Per our original intent:

Our continuing goal and intent with GCW is to provide clear, simple, and universal rules with easy-to-follow gaming mechanics that make gameplay both easy, exciting, and encouraging for multiple players to join in and game each other.

[SWSF Eidolon]

This.

I don't think you need to write any new rules. I think you just need to enforce the perfectly clear rules that you have already posted, instead of saying "well, it's ONE way you can do it, IF YOU WANT TO, but you can do whatever else occurs to you too, with no bonuses"

(i really wanted to be done with it)

   I don't think Accession helps the situation necessarily, more so complicating it, it's not adding anything NEW to the universe  , just speeding things up.  I'm not sure some of those SCRAPPING numbers couldn't get too inflated either, isn't 1850KC for 4 days of Accession at Corellia a bit much?  Not that I don't want more money, but I don't want it in a screwy way.  Then again not many places yield THAT much.

   And isn't making Accession avail to IMPs defeating half the purpose of this discussion?  You're giving EVERYONE another annexation option.  The origin of this debate is the actions at Bespin and Dantooine did not follow WRITTEN RULES (exacerbated by another routine surrender at Myrkr).  Then you make elaboration that you are following UNWRITTEN PRESUME RULES.

   NOW, the explanation of UNWRITTEN RULES - INVASION are a further point of contention, because it gives IMPERIAL factions opportunities for RAPID annexation that NR simply does not have.  NR DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS to CONQUEST OR INVASION on STORY CHARACTER PREMISE unless it were an Imperial element controlled world, because what are you going to say to yourselves if you see the NR go in to Sullust or Kashyyyk guns blazing?  Shooting up Nein Numbs and Chewbaks?  "what the fuck?"  Imps fight ANYONE  NR fights IMPS.   Unless you want NR players to simply explain away CONQUEST/INVASION by saying that whatever we are attacking are remaining Imperialist Loyalists, but was that "practice" not touched on and thrown away when we were dabbling in discussion of Bespin?  We can easily go that route, and attack Neutral worlds at same leisure as Imps, simply saying that IC, those PBCs and Indep ships or whatever they are are manned by Imperial Loyalists.  But I'm not sure that is a desireable practice for the good of the universe either.
  
   I really have to agree with the Greg blurb I quoted.  What is wrong with following WRITTEN RULES AS THEY WERE PRINTED?  Much less problematic.  It all made sense then.  Now it's getting cloudier and cloudier.  If INVASION were Imp Only and ACCESSION were NR only, it makes a little more sense.  Then we all have 1 viable rapid option for use of annexation as opposed to us having 1 and yous having 2 and it enforces the "identity" of factions as a plus, and we still retain both diplomatic and hostile long term MISSION options?  Otherwise I'd prefer we stick with the WRITTEN RULES me and Greg been following up to this point which is NO rapid annexing except in cases of TRUE Barren Worlds (those with no PDF for definition purposes) which require show up and build a facil.  I'm not opposed to rapid annexation in any case, just don't think imps should get easy diplomacy and easy invasion while NR has pretty much use of only easy diplomacy cuz other than Imp Player controlled worlds, who we gonna invade?

[Syren]

So high right now. Though I'd break the tension up in here.

[SWSF Eidolon]

So high right now.

"Shut up Towelie!"


 

  My girl brought home fruity pebble rice crispies made w bud butter today, i had some for dessert bout hour ago.  I'm in outerspace (no pun intended. . .aww ok, guilty pleasure, pun intended =D)but the argument still make-a-puuurrrrrffeect cents. ;p

[Syren]

"You're a towel!"

Someone brought me a cupcake and I was like, I love cupcakes and then I was like whaaaaaaat? It was chocolate with pink frosting as if they knew I would never be able to resist that. Cupcakes. Yes.