The Acolyte (**Spoilers**)

[Medivh]

For Discussions on the new Star Wars show, The Acolyte.

One more warning: Spoilers included.

[Medivh]

OK, so I've decided, Dave Filoni must be spying on our forum.

The Acolyte is the latest example.

What? Twins - one a jedi, the other a sith?   where have I seen that before?  Oh right - Adubell and Nevylinn, twin sisters who, one went dark, one went light.
And the dark twin hunting down jedi?  We've done that plot before!
How about the jedi separating young siblings, and then keeping it a secret, showing that even the good guys are hard to trust? Yup, we've done that too.

I think it is our mission to keep posting stories, because apparently, we are the inspiration for all new Star Wars material.  That's right. This forum is keeping Star Wars alive.

[SWSF Hoppus]

I don't doubt it!

I remember something about some writers hanging around our AOL forums back in the day as well... can't recall details anymore. But I believe in an interview at some point some writer mentioned it, dunno.

[Syren]

Agreed. I thought the same thing while watching it. While they were tracking Osha, if one of them said 'force signature' I was gonna scream. However, we established that when characters use the Force it creates a unique signature which can be tracked, which is why the vaccine suppresses that signature to avoid detection. The second a redheaded, Force-sensitive socialite shows up I'll be, like, okay, I see what's happening here. 

Nevertheless, we persist - for our characters, storylines, and, hell, inspiration that will create future Star Wars fans.

About the eps though - an interesting premise, albeit one we've explored and continue to explore. My bet - and this is a bold prediction don't come at me - is that Sol is the Master, having known both survived and trained one in light and the other in dark. Love to see the layers of righteousness be peeled back from the Jedi whatever the case may be. Similar to X-Men '97 (which was incredible btw), the lens through which we view these tales has changed as we grew and experienced the world. I feel differently about the Jedi now than I did as a kid and teenager. The thing I hate though (and this transcends SW) is the review bombing by those who loathe anything in their precious fandom that features women and/or people of color as their central characters, as if the other species, races, and themes didn't always exist in these stories. Representation is important and what resonates deeply for some is witnessing characters and experiences similar to their own. Things they believe in and cling to. I felt that with Leia growing up: a powerful woman with cute outfits and hair who takes no shit and handles business, even at great personal sacrifice. But I had the privilege of seeing people I admired or that were like me and for a long time others did not - or they were relegated to dangerous stereotypes (something SW has also dabbled into in its own ways). I really wish people could take a step back and appreciate or disagree with or root for people and stories that may not be their own.

Anyway, off the soapbox, curious to see where this goes but goddamn I cannot wait for Andor.

XO

[Syren]

Ep 3 added some interesting depth along with far more suspicion on the Jedi.

If I understood correctly, the two mothers manipulated the midi-chlorians to create life - the twins? Is this similar to Anakin, i.e. was his conception through such manipulation orchestrated by someone else or a result of midi-chlorian symbiosis? Qui Gon only says he may have been conceived by the midi-chlorian's but not sure they go into further detail elsewhere. I ask because it got me thinking that if there was a prophecy floating around about a chosen one - similar to Dune or even in our stories with the Voss-Ra - why wouldn't someone powerful enough influence the prophecy in their favor by creating the very thing it spoke of? If the twins were created in the same way, would the Jedi not be drawn to them given the amount of power and Force use required to do so?

Also, was that why the Jedi came to that world specifically? I know they already covered in the Clone Wars the Jedi's dubious claim on Force-sensitive children and here Indara presents it as a request that requires guardian permission. However, the situation could be manipulated in their favor and that choice is taken away. Mae started the fire but that fire did not lay out that coven. Torbin was clearly injured before they took Osha so either the Jedi took them out (fulfilling Mother Aniseya's words about who has the right to that power) or it was made to look that way.

Lots of ways this could go - anyone else have thoughts?

[SWSF Eidolon]

That's right. This forum is keeping Star Wars alive.

Agreed!

It was always the case.




Have enjoyed this series.  The Order and era here is entirely inspired by The High Republic Marvel title.


The. complete fire engulfment of the fortress had to of had more help (for the purpose of dispersing the heretics) than Maes actions alone especially given the words of some of the masters when facing her, most notably the one who killed himself.  He would not have done that if the Jedi did not actually cause the greater fire that destroyed the enclave.  Next flashback scenes prob gonna show us.

The witches and twins certainly seem the victims.  Their apparent spell based conception is pretty sweet but why no horns if carried by Zabrak?     had not even recalled the Anakin link there yous mention but that is very interesting and basically is a story extension of Shmi Skywalkers virgin birth Anakin.


The mistaken identity of assassin due to twin concept initially seemed kind of meh but having it quickly supplanted by the larger story now of how the jedi destroyed the witches enclave and a community to steal a child makes it interesting.



This reminds me of a personal situation I have with a coven of all female wiccans who moved in behind me and have poor groundskeeping practices.  Ironically, I know they are wiccan because I briefly got in to Wicca as a kid from a dude I met locally in Royal Oak MI who was in ROMK AOL SWSF Hapan sim.  They have a big ole (like 20 feet across at least) symbol of either Horned God or Moon Goddess cut deeper in lawn around the biggest maple tree on property and a pile of cut wood and gathered branches in the circle as part of the offering.


  Proving again AOL SWSF ties run deep and THE simulation itself is getting lazy and repetitive.




  Dave Filoni has credited the whole Legends era of novels and materials as shaping his fandom.  Give his age, it's possible to consider that he saw the AOL SWSF but would have been a bit older than most of us at the time. But as a fan himself talented and lucky enough to forge a career and gain the reins, he consumed all the same stuff we did.




That'd be cool ying yang if Sol is master and manipulated both as you mention Sy, but wouldn't Osha falling out of Order and away from the orbit kind of disrupt the flow of whatever his angle is?

I just rewatched Andor after watching Aco Ep III.  Have got in habit lately of watcing everything with Subtitles on, I catch so much more than otherwise.  But By far the best material since Disney acquired.


Solo , R1 (both are aging great for me, I rewatch Solo often) and Andor are my top picks.

[SWSF Hoppus]

Those are my three favorite in order: Andor, R1, Solo

[Syren]

I was on the fence about this episode until those last few moments. Legit was one of the scariest SW moments for me as the Sith descended the forest behind Osha. The visuals, the music...chills. That costume is terrifying.

Clearly not Sol but it points to the Sith being her homeboy - but that's too obvious, right? If it was misdirection I was leaning toward Mother Korril now as a suspect. However, not sure I get the hierarchy. If this is the Master then where is the apprentice? An acolyte is a step below, right? Similar to a padawan before becoming a formal apprentice. It feels like we're missing a someone or the "Master" is the apprentice and there is an even bigger bad?

Either way, for what was mostly a character development episode - which I like but not really connecting with these characters, so preachy - I was impressed they closed it out with that setup.

Next week better be action-packed.

Eid, Hop - I'm there with you...favs are Andor and R1 of the new stuff. Solo was ok.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Im so happy we got a Tynnan!  Little smaller than I imagined compared to standard human but he was cool none the less.


I was thinking the guide guy was the master as well, it seems too obvious though as you say.. but also it seems pretty obvious...  They both identified the sith master as a he though.  "He collects people", "He's here".  Either the Khalranaac(sp?) was already dead and Mae showing up to kill him was itself a test, or the Sith Master responded very quickly and was shadowing over her and the guide, or is the guide.  Mae says "10minutes" thatta way more or less didn't she?



I liked the white/orange face jedi girls quote to Osha.  "We aren't defined by what we lose, we are defined by what we survive"



At this point with Mae having already 'seen the light' now in episode 4, its going quickly and whats next? could be anything.,.  I wanna guess maybe the idea is for the Sith Master have been using Mae as bait to actually get to Osha?

- Osha fell out of Order.  They clearly don't want her back, she was even let down when she didn't get the invite to rejoin order proper when Sol invited her on this next trip, maybe there were troubling signs in her?

- Mae has not herself demonstrated MUCH Force strength.  She's extremely well martially trained but uses any sense of power minimally.  Even when she throws the dust storm to escape, her master just threw a concussive storm that knocked back 5 or more jedi.  She's not very strongly trained yet but sent on these missions to kill Jedi Masters more so in a manipulative sort of way than with strength or power.

- Osha has been talking about some of her Force sensations returning.

- The Sithy is looking to capture Osha because she is the more potent of the 2 having already been trained as a jedi.  Mae recieved no such jedi training.  Osha turned dark can be a much more formidable apprentice?


There has been a twist per episode so far though..

Ep 1-2 Osha killing Jedi? No she has a twin who survived the incident.  Some underlying issue with Jedi incident shown
Ep 3 Flashback of how Osha and Mae as children became separated through jedi intrusion on their life and their family/community destryoed, Jedi misguided deeds?
Ep 4 Mae sees that she is being used and manipulated and decides to turn herself in now knowing Osha alive

  Sith guy revealed, is he guide/qimir? or if so how does the guide/qimir guy plug in to this because he gets a bit of screen time already to end up a write off?

  Wookieepedia article on Qimir and Actor Manny Jacinto talks about how showrunner wrote the character with him in mind specifically and if he didn't accept it she would have rewritten the character.  That seems like he is maybe somewhat enduring and important?

  He seems to know a lot and even offers Mae lessons and observations on the jedi she's tasked with killing.

[Medivh]

There's something about the pacing or the inconsistency in the acting that is irking me.

Mae seems all cool and mysterious in the first episode, when she kills a jedi, and then Osha sees some type of prophesy or vision that says Mae is alive, which at first, seemed like a message FROM Mae, but apparently wasn't, because Mae didn't know anything about it.

Osha hasn't had another vision since then, so ... it felt out of place
Jedi Wookiee?  We saw him walking around, but never saw him do anything else. He's dead. So insignificant
Mae is too wishy-washy as "the acolyte" and Osha is too wishy-washy as the jedi-dropout.  "She's my sister, but she's a murderer, but she's not my problem anymore" - 
It's not clear what Osha's motivation is, or Mae's, or the jedi.

And it doesn't feel like it's part of the cliffhanger/mystery (like what really happened during the fire).  It feels incomplete.

Also, the sith appearance - a bit too showy?  It feels like that horror movie, where Dracula suddenly comes down from the sky.  Is he trying to remain a secret, trying to kill the jedi, what?

A big outstanding question is what does it mean "kill a jedi without a weapon" - Apparently, that's very important to do. Because a weapon clearly includes any actual weapon, any form of violence, any tool or poison -including telling them they should drink poison to obtain forgiveness.

[SWSF Eidolon]

Does the Force count as a weapon?  If no maybe that is point to force her to grow powers?  To kill with her anger?

We are due another flashback episode to show the Fortress demise from another angle, what was the witches final act?  We don't really see exactly how they are all laid out in Destiny.  Just the Osha escpaing, seeing power core explode and the chaos, her and Mae confronting, walkway crumbles, Sol saves osha, Mae falls and the way.  If Mae survived, maybe not all witches died?  Osha is then on ventilator.  Lots of unexplained about Fortress/Witches demise yet?

Qimir is noted as having been a smuggler, worked for Hutts and trader of unique items.  Unique items sound Sith Artifacty!



The Master himself must already know that Mae was a twin and her sister was alive.. and dark side masters are never not using their apprentices.. always manipulation

The Acolyte is singular but there are twin sisters, what would point of separated twins be if not to bring them together? but then to separate them again with one as the acolyte and one either not or dead? hmm.

[Syren]

Agree, Med. Something about the pacing and dialog is throwing me off.

When Mae abandons her quest and wants to turn herself in, that may have been a natural progression after realizing Osha is alive, but it did not feel earned. We've only known the character for three episodes in the present and one flashback so we haven't invested enough as an audience and she hasn't been fleshed out enough as a character for that turn to land. It's like GoT all over again and we got to spend seasons with Dani before the turn and that still didn't feel fleshed out enough - even if it was a foregone conclusion, audiences need to see/feel the progression for them to buy it.

For the whole 'it broke canon' thing with the Sith being present even though in Episode 1 the Jedi were like the Sith haven't been around in ages - that I buy. The Jedi have now been established as unreliable narrators. Look how quickly Vernestra was ready to cover up the current situation by not alerting the high council. So, they may have believed the Sith have been dormant but that is only because any Jedi who may have encountered them could have covered it up so they wouldn't know and eventually what led to their overarching hubris and downfall. I know people are like they are supposed to be the good guys and heroes and such, and that is not to say they aren't in their own little minds, but what I do love about the newer projects is that they add depth to that heroic narrative. It's not so black and white, despite their rigid code. They will go to just as great of lengths in the name of peace which secures their dominant presence but there is a flip side to that. The Sith are simply more forthcoming about what they want and the methods through which they will go to obtain it.

I've heard the name Smilo Ren being thrown around for the Sith which cracks me up.

If it is Qimir then why those four particular Jedi as targets? Unless he is only using Mae and her vendetta for some grander purpose? She has a reason to hate them if she knows what really went down - if they allegedly came in peace offering a choice then took Osha through orchestrated force and left Mae to die. I would be pissed too. I would be even more pissed if I discovered Osha was actually taken and didn't die as Mae had believed which would have driven that darkness and thirst for revenge. If the Sith is manipulating Mae, outside of wanting to generally undermine the Jedi, I wonder what the motive may be. Exposure? Creating doubt and eventual mistrust? Perhaps a more personal connection? I ultimately wonder if the Sith is the apprentice and the true Master is one of the mothers in the coven. We saw Aniseya's body but that doesn't mean she was dead. Sol pulled Osha away before she could reach her so who knows? Mother Korril seemed more aggressive toward the Jedi, knowing they created life using the force. Heard an interesting theory the Sith showed them how to do it and the Jedi getting that close would have revealed them to still be active which we know they were but in secret.

I will still see how it plays out but the pacing is still bothering me.

Funny story, one of the few people I follow on YouTube has a SW channel, Ek, who has a very distinctive Canadian voice. My husband was watching a hockey recap during the playoffs this year and I was like, "Is that Ek?" And he was like, "How do you know Ek?" And I was like, "How do you know Ek?". Turns out, Ek is both a massive Star Wars and hockey fan and we'd both been watching his separate channels for different things. It's the small things that bind a relationship, I tell ya.

[Medivh]

And last night, we got Cortosis armor :-)

[Syren]

We sure did! First time in canon, I believe since that originated in what is now considered legends. I know we've read about it and written about it but so cool to see it in live action.

Hats off to the choreography in this episode as that was quite action-packed.

Some thoughts...

The reveal - not shocking. What was shocking was those guns. I guess saber-wielding is good for delts and such.

Did not expect that level of massacre but they sure went there which lends itself to my theory that by the end of this the "Sith" may take out any Jedi with any knowledge of him and/or have it covered up by leadership so that by the time Ep 1 rolls around the Jedi Council are obscenely unaware - both of the growing Sith threat but also they are the ones who concealed it which led to their spectacular downfall.

Also, he never said he was a Sith only that the Jedi would reference someone like him as a Sith. If he doesn't consider him as such either he's not a fan of labels or is something else entirely. Still get a feeling he is the apprentice serving a master who has taken to fostering darkness in an acolyte.

The switch thing - not a bad plan as plans go, considering there is only one Jedi left on the hit list. That's one way to get close to one's target. However, wouldn't Sol sense this? I imagine her presence would not feel the same to him.

Lastly, lots of insinuation that the Jedi do bad things in the name of good. Curious to see what they actually did but also how the "Sith" is connected to it. Was it me or did he also seem to have a personal connection to it all? It would be strange for him to purely project on behalf of the twins but may be reading too deeply and he is trying to prove a larger, more insidious point about the Jedi.

[Medivh]

There seem to be a lot of loose ends and questions left.

First is the obvious - we KNOW Sol and the jedi with him did something the night of the fire.  He's repeatedly said he'll "explain everything" and he feels guilty about something.  THIS was the central question for the first 3 episodes, but it was kind of forgotten during the last two.  Seeing the jedi as less than perfect fits nicely with the stories we have going on now here.  That they are blinded to their own internal problems helps explains what they don't know and their eventual downfall generations later.  But the story-telling ...

Second, we learned in the first episode that there is an effort to curb use of the force outside of the jedi order.  That seemed to be what Qimir was referring to. I actually hated the line that the jedi would call him a sith.  SITH hasn't been defined, the word dark side hasn't been used.  Whether he is actually a sith or not, it was a stupid line. It doesn't bother me that much that there might be a "sith" around now - I don't think it hurts the all sacred canon (everyone on this forum used or uses Legends material, which has been declared non-canon anyways).  

Here's a few lines I think would have been better:
"I'm what the jedi fear - someone not under their control"
Or more fleshed out:
"I'm like you.  I have the force at my side.  But unlike you, and your jedi, I see the full power of the Force.  Generations ago, my people were cast out by the jedi centuries ago for daring to have ambition, for daring to use their power. Your history books would call them sith, wielders of the dark side of the force.  And their knowledge has been passed down, generation to generation, master to apprentice (((or master to acolyte)), until me.  You think I am the bad guy, but your self-righteousness is undeserved.  You and your jedi are just as ambitious, just as power hungry, as me. I just don't pretend, like you do"

It's stil rubbing me the wrong way, the pacing, the dialogue.  I feel like there is a good story here, but they are either rushing to tell it, or just assume certain knowledge, or don't care what we don't know.  Even if there was a "big reveal" at the end, I don't think it will necessarily be earned.