Author Topic: Not to bring it up again but...  (Read 29801 times)

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2020, 02:01:45 PM »
Meh, a simple power rating isn't nuanced enough. I would be happy to break things out into several ratings, and making a one off series of rolls to resolve a battle though, if it takes into account the various dynamics.

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2020, 02:33:11 PM »
you can't have it all ;p  I'm not against rolling at all but it would seem to just add too much more time to back and forth posting vs one players turn and it all gets done in that single post.  But is just a rough idea anyways shrug



A 20 vs 11 Power Rating Battle.


Make it a percentage.  11 Difference/20 Winners Rating = 55%.  So 55% of the 9pts the Loser had are Lost.

9x0.55 = 4.95 round up to 5.  Loser loses 5pts worth of ships.  An FRG is 3pts, so 1 FRG is destroyed, 1 is heavily damaged.  1 survives and is sent to the nearest friendly world.



The heavily damaged ship is sidelined for that players next full turn or whatever.



The nuance of the game is about positioning.  Where are your ships, are you moving ships to attack a small target and moving some ships to reinforce defense of other worlds of yours, are you moving ships for one large attack in your turn etc.


« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 02:36:52 PM by SWSF Eidolon »
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Offline SWSF Hale

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2020, 08:37:31 AM »
Yes I believe we sketched out a system like this before...

Hyperdrive = number of grids you could move.
Hyperspace lanes function as "shoots and ladders" giving you the option to "slide" from one system to the next.
We treat units as "cards" so to speak, not dissimilar from CCG/TCG formats.
I think for the defunct TRATE game we also had a tech tree, not dissimilar from Civ or other Strat games.


Personally I think whatever game we do next, it needs to be single-ended rather than open-ended. Like a board game, it can be set up, played, then put away.
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2020, 08:55:53 AM »
I think that makes sense; however, I won't lie that part of the appeal is the idea the game can go on and on and on. I know it is a bit irrational to be drawn to that aspect of it, since no game ever really even manages to get going beyond the first 30-60 days with any enthusiasm :shrug:
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 09:33:27 AM by SWSF Hoppus »

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2020, 12:58:00 PM »
Re: Open/Single Ended.  I see a game on the Hex Gal Board as kind of both.  I mean, yeah it could go on forever but it could also get to a point of "Checkmate" so to speak if played just right and gone on long enough.  In which case, it be designed simple enough that its easy to just set it up again and go.  Basically a long distance chess match.


Re: Ships as "Cards".  Im not sure I digest the difference in treatment.  Make them simple and base with a strength value, maybe an ability or two that can be pitted against opposing 'Cards' so they can counter each other or something.



Re: Tech tree. Thats def cool.  As an access type thing -  Like certain worlds (or the facilities/traits they have) give you access to certain units or benefits to your ships/cards.  This creates a driven purpose to go after particular worlds to achieve something other than just territorial holdings with a name.




Throwing Out General Ideas..

  Maybe the Set Up is a critical part of the actual LIVE game itself.

  At start every player gets someting like 20 Cards/Ships of equal strength or whatever the gauge is.

  On your 1st turn, you pick 1 planet.  All your Cards/Ships are considered to begin the game here.

  In a turn, every player can only move the same # of/Strength Value or whatever worth of cards, so hypothetically if we start with 20, say its 10.

  Say in the 1st Round of turns, there's no attacking.

  Im a Rebel player, I draw 1st Turn.  I choose Dac.  All my cards/ships are here.  I can move 10 of them now.  I send 5 to Roche which is say well within HD range, and I send 5 to Kashyyyk which is say at the extended limit of my HD range.



  Say Hop is an Imp player then and he's next. in Round 1 of the game.  He chooses Corulag as his start world.  His 20 Cards are there.  He decides to send 4 to Kuat, and 6 to Carida.



  Now I have 3 worlds under my contorl and Hop has 3 worlds under his control.



  To expand a little further, maybe each planet has some imbued traits.  i.e.  Maybe to contorl a world you need a certain amount of Strength/Cards there.  For canon Imperial loyal worlds, its easier.  An imp player would only need 1 Card there to control it.  For neutral or rebel canon loyal worlds, it would be harder, maybe they need 2 or 3 Cards there to control it.  At same time, each world maybe has some traits/access.  Maybe they give certain Cards/Ships new abilities, or maybe they allow access to diff Units/Cards etc.

    So a planet has a Loyalty which determines how many cards/strength of cards or untis they need to be able to exert control of it.  Controling it gives them the benefits of that planet, be in in tech/access or bonuses to their cards/units/more cards etc.  This is the gist of the "economy"/reason for wanting to control worlds then.


    To easily make the game Single Ended, you could say something as simple as Victory Conditions = A player controls 20 planets.  So you could all be turtling and gaining worlds, but as soon as another player is at like 12-15 worlds, you start to worry and have to start knocking some of them off.






    The idea of starting all at 1 place and getting 1 planet at start is, with the HD travel range and such, it creates zones of territory.  Eventually (probably rather quickly) we are pushing up against other players zones and coming in to conflict by virtue of A) being close  B) the story of the reb vs empire and C) trying to keep other players from occupying 20 worlds and winning the game.

   

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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2020, 05:08:49 PM »
The broad strokes of that idea sounds very appealing. Boardgame + unit cards + bonuses from territory and individual worlds.

I like the Card aspect because it makes me think of Magic The Gathering... I was playing around with some sort of bastardized version where large capital ships were like lands, but netted you tactical points to use in a turn rather than Mana ot cast spells. That's all too much for this level of game.

I think you can do something similar in spirit though.

Controlling a planet nets some bonus 
Controlling X planets allows some sort of bonus/enables something/etc

Individual cards could have attack power, special capabilities, etc.

Imagine if a TIE Fighter card had a special capability like "nullifies an enemy bomber squadron"

Imagine an X-Wing Fighter card had a special capability like "Escort, prevents a bomber from being nullified"

We could reduce the number of squadrons reprsented in the game so you don't have dozens of SF cards always out.

Imagine an ISD with a capability that is "conquest: allows taking over a planet in some fashion" and "Battle Platform: takes a damage penalty to withdraw from a battle since it is slow and shit"

We would need to draft a long list of capability types/functions and prune them down and make something, but now how you craft your fleet means it fights in different ways against different enemies, but an "attack" is pretty straightforward in your turn, knowing what enemy units are present. But its nuanced!

Like, a pair four Assault Frigates loaded with X-Wings might be kryptonite to a single ISD, but would be in trouble against VSDIIs, ESCs, and an INT that doesn't let anyone escape the battle!

This could be fucking cool.

And someone could make us neat cards to put in our posts.

I like this.  

You could even have cards you buy and cards you win (maybe large victories or something earn special points you can use to redeem "Leaders" that can be added to fleets and give them more special capabilities or options").



To summarize my combat vision with the XW/TF examples..

I have:
1 YW (Bomber, great attack against Capital class craft)
1 AW (Interceptor, great attack against SF)
1 CORV (Capital, great attack against SF and has a speedy retreat)

I exit at a Imp world with
2 TF
1 Carrack (Capital, great attack against Capital)

My attack would be a matter of choosing how to use each card.

- YW I set it to SF combat, with its poor rating, since a TF will nullify it.
- AW I set to anti SF as well
- CORV I set to anti SF because why not..

That gives me 12 Anti SF Points, 0 Anti Cap points or something for that round.

When the Imp player plays out his round, he can choose how to respond to that attack.
- First he can play all his cards.
- 2 TF anti SF mode
- Carrack anti Cap mode

That gives him i dont fucking know 4 Anti SF Points and 0 anti cap points.

He also takes dmg: 12 SF points kills both his TIEs.

Next round...



Even that may be too detailed. Maybe it is just a one time comparison of damage: Who ever manages to kill off more of their enemy wins and the other has to retreat.


Some cool options here that allow us to avoid dice, damage charts and just look at indibidual units and treat them as a collective in combat.

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2020, 05:17:30 PM »
Alternatively each card can either be used to make ONE attack type (contribute SF or CAP damage points) or use ONE special capability (like nullify bomber cap attacks).

Maybe the Reb player doesn't know how it will play out -- if they use YW to attack Cap, they wont know if the other player is gong to nullify their Bombers, or use them to attack their SFs and do damage.

I dont know, lots of things to chew on in all of that and it would be good to know what an ideal battle flow "felt" like.

In CIVIII, you had turn based shit going on, you might have 2-3-4 turns of trying to sack a city (rarely more), meanwhile shields and gold were harvested each time, and time lept forward each round, etc. Do we ant something like that? The most you'd get is a 2-3-4 turns invested in a battle, and each turn is also you taking care of administrating your empire -- moving units, including bringing more in for support in a battle, starting new constructions, etc. Do you want to "construct" things or have some other way to repair/acquire new units? I think the Civ3 style would work well, especially if the card-based combat was interesting and not too overwhelming.

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2020, 10:47:14 AM »
unless im midunderstanding- Im not necessarily opposed to something like that but at moment I was thinking battle should be kind of automatic/1 post each.  Like, you move your cards to a planet with opposing forces (cards) in your turn, and it's all determined right there.



It all boils down to positioning of your cards then on the hex gal map and their abilities/strengths as compared to the opposing cards they are facing if you send them to an 'in range' opposing controlled/carded planet.  With everyones cards beginning at 1 hex location, the first few turns are probably our cards filtering out through the galaxy to control new worlds and gain those bonuses/traits/values.  After a couple rounds of the game seeming more like a land grab, inevitably it quickly becomes showdowns of the cards.  It is there VERY strategic in terms of where you are moving your cards as it relates to where other players are moving their cards.


If we create a system that requires back and forth to resolve 1 single battle, then it disrupts the regular flow of the other turn cycles where a single player is deploying/moving cards around on the hex gal map.





Like in your example...


you move 1 CRV card, 1 YW card and  AW card to a hex location where opposing player has 2 TF cards and 1 CRK card..

You move your cards there via post and declare what other cards they are facing then.



1AW card faces 1TF card
1YW card faces 1CRK card
1CRV faces 1CRK card




so then looking at the traits of the cards themselves, the AW card automatically nullifies and destroys 1 of the TF cards.

The 1YW and 1CRV have traits/strength enough to destroy the 1CRK.

There remains 1TF then that wasnt faced/engaged.




so the opposing player can use the CRK and the 1 unegaged TF (armada rules, engaged fighters are bound?)

opposing player posts that 1 CRK facing the 1 CRV.  It has the strength to kill the CRV.

Opposing player posts the 1TF engaging the 1YW that had attacked the CRK.




So the battle took 1 round, 1 post for each player the end result..


The attacker achieved his means.  He killed the 1TF card and the 1CRK card.

He lost his CRV though from the counter attack by the CRK before it is considered dead.

His AWs had engaged TF1 and killed them, but they engaged so are considered to have had some damage, this means that come this players next turn, these AWs are 'frozen/repairing/replenishing'.

The same is true with his YWs then because TF2 engaged them but dont have the strength to kill them alone.

As the TF2 was not destroyed outright here, they are still lost, only because they have no HD rating to be able to escape though, so they are more or less 'forfeited' kind of.  If they were say TIE Avengers, they could counter and then escape as well to the nearest friendly controlled planet. 

The attacker has his 1AW and 1YW card left at this planet.  But as stated above, they are both in a 'frozen/used/recovering' state because they were used/engaged.




The battle only took 1 round, there was some tactical nuance.

As a highlight of other possiblities, suppose TF2 was actually , TI1 card.  TI cards have Interceptor capability, so maybe they were used to Intecept the YWs before they could attack the CRK.  This would be kind of HUGE, because this would nullify the YWs attack on the CRK, and the CRV wouldn't have the 'POWER RATING" alone to kill the CRK.  So now in his counter post, the Imp player cna use the CRK to attack the CRV, and kill it because it has the power to kill the CRV alone.

In contrast then though, if this were the case and TIs were present, the Rebel player would have likely use the AWs to engage the TIs, so that the TIs wouldn't be available to intercept the YWs, thus enabling the CRK to be killed.

In another contrast, if neither of the TF cards was a TF and both were TIs, then you see how a huge difference can be made just by replacing 2 TF cards with 2 TI cards.  The 1AW could of course engage 1 of the TIs, but the other TI is then free to Intercept the YW and stop its attack on the CRK.  The tide of battle turns simply because one of the TIs is able to stop the 1YW.  The rebel player needs to go back and reconsider his strategy.  Essentially ANY additional card would allow him to have killed the CRK and won the battle- a CRV card, because 2CRVs would have the POWER RATING to be able to kill the CRK, another YW, because the 2nd free TI card can only intercept 1 of the 2 YWs, or an additional AW card, because 2 AW cards can be used to engage/occupy 2 TI cards.




As an additional note, there is inherent pros and cons to the the TF, TI and TB cards.  On one hand, they would be less 'costly' in terms of however we interpret the cost.  Be it accumulated credit of some kind to 'buy' cards, or be it an expanding limit to the value of cards a player can have.  On the other hand- they dont have HD, so they can't escape losing battles, and are forefeited at the end then because of this.  ?



Just concepts all in all.



Again, all battle is done in 1 round.  Not much disruption to the Hex Gal Map/Campaign movements/turns.  Very quick.  Strategic and Tactics in one?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 12:57:49 PM by SWSF Eidolon »
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2020, 01:29:36 PM »
I wasn't saying it was YW vs Target A, I was saying, "Use the YW Bomber Attack to +5 points to Capital Ship Attack Damage for my hand"

SO cards can:
- Contrib to SF Attack Rating
- Contrib to Cap Attack Rating
- Execute special ability (like a TF nullifying a YW bomber attack, and so those +5 pts are lost)

Then I'd end the turn with:

+5 SF Attack 
+2 CAP Attack
+1 "CSP Special Ability" 

That damage gets taken when the nect player goes, and if they want to do a sF bomb attack, they'd have to do 2 to have 1 make an impact, etc.

The idea is to avoid specifying what you are attacking with what, just putting cards into a certain mode and contributing to a total attack. Then the enemy takes damage as it would like or whatever.

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2020, 01:33:48 PM »
Just read over your post again, and I could see the argument for that approach (it feels exciting).

I just wonder what it looks like when my fleet is 2 ISDs, 1 VSD, an ESC, and an INT with support craft. Would that be too much? Maybe not especially as we are sort of set and go without too much other distraction?

I think this vein of thinking has something to it.

Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2020, 03:07:09 PM »
I got ya on the YW adding to capship attack




That is a big hand of cards but I would htink it still works kind of in a larger form.  I would also though think/hope that the idea of a rush to controlling 20 planets each that you wouldn't end up with a concentration of cards like that to be sending all one place, but not to say it couldn't happen.  As another concept though, we could also write in a basic max limit to a "Hand" of cards.  i.e. any hand of cards you play can only be a maximum of 10 cards, regardless of the strength/value of those cards.  So considering that each support unit is it's own card as well, it basically negates any value to having 2 ISD cards in one hand/place because if they're both carrying max support unit cards, it's already over the 10 you can play in 1 battle.  ?

With respects to mentioning 'with support craft', Id think we are thinking of them all as repreented in a more compact form, like a card as we did in previous talk about 1 CRK and 2 TF cards.  1 TF card is about a squadron Im assuming we are thinking we are just representing it as easy as possible as a game token as possible.


So 2 ISDs, 1 VSD, 1 ESC, 1 INT.  This is 5 cards in itself.  We could say something like in the rules/guides of how cards work, for instance obviously TF/TI/TB cards (any unit without its own hyperdrive) needs to have another card that can 'carry' it, i.e. all of those capital ship cards you mentioned.

So maybe for example in an ISDs card we are stating how many Cards it can carry.


ISD I Card
Class Heavy Capital Ship
Hyperdrive 6 (means it can move 6 hexes in 1 turn)
Power 10 (attack)
Strength 20 (damage tolerance)
Support 6 (it can carry 6 support class cards)
Abils  ?


TF Card
Class Support
HD 0
PWR 1
STR 2
Abils  ?


TI Card
Class Support
HD 0
PWR 2
STR 3
Abils Intercept (can counter any support units attack move to negate it?)


YW Card
Class Support
HD 4
PWR 2/4    (1st is PWR v Support Type)
STR 5
Abils Bomber (can attack capital ships)


XW Card
Class Support
HD 4
PWR 3/4
STR 5
Abils Bomber (can attack capital ships)


AW Card
Class Support
HD 4
PWR 4
STR 3
Abils Inteceptor




We then ahve to get in to relationship rules such as how cards interact and shit. i.e. what the Interceptor and Bomber designations mean.  The idea that not every Card/Unit type can freely be used against any other card/unit type.  i.e. a 1 ISD card is useless against 1XW Card.  In terms of Abils, you take a unit like the Lancer Frigate, an give it's card the "Starfighter Screening" or "ANTI SF" trait/abil, meaning this type of Capship can be used against Support Unit cards.  Or maybe even something like you can attach this card to the ISD card to make it immune to Support/SF attacks? 

Also even though we give Capital Cards the ability to carry Support cards, maybe they can't use them all.  So yeah ok, an ISD can carry 6 support cards - be it TFs/TBs/TIs/Aux types etc.  But maybe it can only 'deal/deploy' so many of them.  i.e. does an aircraft carrier ever launch all of its planes at one time and have them all deployed at once?  doubtful outside of WWII era? (hale?)

So the idea of an ISD carrying 6 support cards and not being able to really use them all in 1 battle is sort of more an attrition/longevity type thing.  Yeah it carries 6 on the plus side, and yeah it could say maybe only 'deploy/deal' 3 of them in a battle, and yeah it might lose them, but at the same time, it doesn't have to return to wherever you're keeping the replacements for those support cards to get new ones to keep patrolling the hex gal map.  It might lose them in a battle, but it has others that it couldn't use all at once/all in one battle.




I dunno all together though. All a very fresh concept still.  But overall I dig it and the potential.



On the surface of it all roughly though at this point to highlight maybe how the game might work I would be comfortable saying something like..


- Use the Hex Gal Map.  Give each world a Loyalty Leaning (Rebel, Neutral, Imperial).  Give each world a unique bonus or trait of some kind that gives each world its own distinct value.  This value may make certain types of cards better, or may add to the total number/pwr of cards you can have or some shit.

- Each Player chooses 1 World at start as their Base/Capitol.

- A player builds a Deck of 20 cards initially. ( or also rated/limited by the total PWR of the cards or something maybe?) This whole deck starts at their 1 world.

- A player can play/deploy/move 10 cards (or an equatable/equal value PWR of cards) per turn on a measureable 'Hyperdrive' movement distance.

- A Battle is resolved with 1 back and forth round of the cards played.

- The game is played as a quest to control 20-25 planets.  So the idea is obviously as always to get worlds for yourself and deny them of your opponent using the placement strategy of your cards and battle tactics of playing them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 03:11:45 PM by SWSF Eidolon »
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Offline SWSF Eidolon

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2020, 03:15:11 PM »

also as a note, I know Hale is very good with images as well, but I am willing to work on cards when we get to that point for us to use in posts to make it a nice picture vs not only text based game.  We can come up with some templates basically for the cards and then all we have to do is fill in the values and pictures and anyone can work on them basically.



This enables another interesting idea..  the ability to incorporate UNIQUE cards- that is say something like any Capital Ship card that survives 5 "Battle Hands" can be given a UNIQUE designation, that is it's card transforms into a special card, where its value ratings are slightly better than the generic version of that ship type.   i.e. conceptually a veteran experienced crew or osme shit
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Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2020, 03:30:59 PM »
To reduce card bloat I was thinking of reducing the # that things cary and fudging the numbers a bit, or just untethering them entirely.

Instead, you have some limit total cards you can play/carry into battle.

A non-HS craft might require a capital ship with 'TIE SUPPORT' capability in the system, and to retreat one of those tie carrier ships must also be retreating.

If we are capping hands to 10-15 cards max, no need to be specific about how many.


Another thing to think about is limiting not just total deck size, but limiting how many cards can be played per round.

I know you want a one and done resolution, but I would be fine for it taking up to 3 posting rounds (CIV3 battles could take 1-3 depending).

Maybe we player 3-3-4 cards in a round, or even the cards you have determine when you play them (like SUPPORT ONLY-CAP ONLY-ALL CARDS DOWN-Loser retreats with surviving cards, winner stays).


EDIT:

I mean playing 3 cards, then 3 cards in next round, then the last 4. So the order you drop shit makes a difference. Attacker is essentially put on defensive first by deploying but not attacking. Maybe first player gets to lay out an extra card or something as a balance.

Offline Syren

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2020, 03:59:42 PM »
Oh my God, I love you guys but a part of me thinks you love talking about it more than putting into practice. GreyJedi set you guys up for the massive saga you hashed out before the pandemic went down. 
Syren

Offline SWSF Hoppus

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Re: Not to bring it up again but...
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2020, 04:08:36 PM »
OBVIOUSLY.