Star Wars Sim Forum: Roleplay, Simming and Fan Fiction
COMMUNITY => OOC Cantina => Topic started by: Medivh on June 06, 2024, 09:00:22 AM
-
For Discussions on the new Star Wars show, The Acolyte.
One more warning: Spoilers included.
-
OK, so I've decided, Dave Filoni must be spying on our forum.
The Acolyte is the latest example.
What? Twins - one a jedi, the other a sith? where have I seen that before? Oh right - Adubell and Nevylinn, twin sisters who, one went dark, one went light.
And the dark twin hunting down jedi? We've done that plot before!
How about the jedi separating young siblings, and then keeping it a secret, showing that even the good guys are hard to trust? Yup, we've done that too.
I think it is our mission to keep posting stories, because apparently, we are the inspiration for all new Star Wars material. That's right. This forum is keeping Star Wars alive.
(https://i.imgur.com/9mh4zRT.png)
-
I don't doubt it!
I remember something about some writers hanging around our AOL forums back in the day as well... can't recall details anymore. But I believe in an interview at some point some writer mentioned it, dunno.
-
Agreed. I thought the same thing while watching it. While they were tracking Osha, if one of them said 'force signature' I was gonna scream. However, we established that when characters use the Force it creates a unique signature which can be tracked, which is why the vaccine suppresses that signature to avoid detection. The second a redheaded, Force-sensitive socialite shows up I'll be, like, okay, I see what's happening here.
Nevertheless, we persist - for our characters, storylines, and, hell, inspiration that will create future Star Wars fans.
About the eps though - an interesting premise, albeit one we've explored and continue to explore. My bet - and this is a bold prediction don't come at me - is that Sol is the Master, having known both survived and trained one in light and the other in dark. Love to see the layers of righteousness be peeled back from the Jedi whatever the case may be. Similar to X-Men '97 (which was incredible btw), the lens through which we view these tales has changed as we grew and experienced the world. I feel differently about the Jedi now than I did as a kid and teenager. The thing I hate though (and this transcends SW) is the review bombing by those who loathe anything in their precious fandom that features women and/or people of color as their central characters, as if the other species, races, and themes didn't always exist in these stories. Representation is important and what resonates deeply for some is witnessing characters and experiences similar to their own. Things they believe in and cling to. I felt that with Leia growing up: a powerful woman with cute outfits and hair who takes no shit and handles business, even at great personal sacrifice. But I had the privilege of seeing people I admired or that were like me and for a long time others did not - or they were relegated to dangerous stereotypes (something SW has also dabbled into in its own ways). I really wish people could take a step back and appreciate or disagree with or root for people and stories that may not be their own.
Anyway, off the soapbox, curious to see where this goes but goddamn I cannot wait for Andor.
XO
-
Ep 3 added some interesting depth along with far more suspicion on the Jedi.
If I understood correctly, the two mothers manipulated the midi-chlorians to create life - the twins? Is this similar to Anakin, i.e. was his conception through such manipulation orchestrated by someone else or a result of midi-chlorian symbiosis? Qui Gon only says he may have been conceived by the midi-chlorian's but not sure they go into further detail elsewhere. I ask because it got me thinking that if there was a prophecy floating around about a chosen one - similar to Dune or even in our stories with the Voss-Ra - why wouldn't someone powerful enough influence the prophecy in their favor by creating the very thing it spoke of? If the twins were created in the same way, would the Jedi not be drawn to them given the amount of power and Force use required to do so?
Also, was that why the Jedi came to that world specifically? I know they already covered in the Clone Wars the Jedi's dubious claim on Force-sensitive children and here Indara presents it as a request that requires guardian permission. However, the situation could be manipulated in their favor and that choice is taken away. Mae started the fire but that fire did not lay out that coven. Torbin was clearly injured before they took Osha so either the Jedi took them out (fulfilling Mother Aniseya's words about who has the right to that power) or it was made to look that way.
Lots of ways this could go - anyone else have thoughts?
-
That's right. This forum is keeping Star Wars alive.
Agreed!
It was always the case.
Have enjoyed this series. The Order and era here is entirely inspired by The High Republic Marvel title.
The. complete fire engulfment of the fortress had to of had more help (for the purpose of dispersing the heretics) than Maes actions alone especially given the words of some of the masters when facing her, most notably the one who killed himself. He would not have done that if the Jedi did not actually cause the greater fire that destroyed the enclave. Next flashback scenes prob gonna show us.
The witches and twins certainly seem the victims. Their apparent spell based conception is pretty sweet but why no horns if carried by Zabrak? :( had not even recalled the Anakin link there yous mention but that is very interesting and basically is a story extension of Shmi Skywalkers virgin birth Anakin.
The mistaken identity of assassin due to twin concept initially seemed kind of meh but having it quickly supplanted by the larger story now of how the jedi destroyed the witches enclave and a community to steal a child makes it interesting.
This reminds me of a personal situation I have with a coven of all female wiccans who moved in behind me and have poor groundskeeping practices. Ironically, I know they are wiccan because I briefly got in to Wicca as a kid from a dude I met locally in Royal Oak MI who was in ROMK AOL SWSF Hapan sim. They have a big ole (like 20 feet across at least) symbol of either Horned God or Moon Goddess cut deeper in lawn around the biggest maple tree on property and a pile of cut wood and gathered branches in the circle as part of the offering.
Proving again AOL SWSF ties run deep and THE simulation itself is getting lazy and repetitive.
Dave Filoni has credited the whole Legends era of novels and materials as shaping his fandom. Give his age, it's possible to consider that he saw the AOL SWSF but would have been a bit older than most of us at the time. But as a fan himself talented and lucky enough to forge a career and gain the reins, he consumed all the same stuff we did.
That'd be cool ying yang if Sol is master and manipulated both as you mention Sy, but wouldn't Osha falling out of Order and away from the orbit kind of disrupt the flow of whatever his angle is?
I just rewatched Andor after watching Aco Ep III. Have got in habit lately of watcing everything with Subtitles on, I catch so much more than otherwise. But By far the best material since Disney acquired.
Solo , R1 (both are aging great for me, I rewatch Solo often) and Andor are my top picks.
-
Those are my three favorite in order: Andor, R1, Solo
-
I was on the fence about this episode until those last few moments. Legit was one of the scariest SW moments for me as the Sith descended the forest behind Osha. The visuals, the music...chills. That costume is terrifying.
Clearly not Sol but it points to the Sith being her homeboy - but that's too obvious, right? If it was misdirection I was leaning toward Mother Korril now as a suspect. However, not sure I get the hierarchy. If this is the Master then where is the apprentice? An acolyte is a step below, right? Similar to a padawan before becoming a formal apprentice. It feels like we're missing a someone or the "Master" is the apprentice and there is an even bigger bad?
Either way, for what was mostly a character development episode - which I like but not really connecting with these characters, so preachy - I was impressed they closed it out with that setup.
Next week better be action-packed.
Eid, Hop - I'm there with you...favs are Andor and R1 of the new stuff. Solo was ok.
-
Im so happy we got a Tynnan! Little smaller than I imagined compared to standard human but he was cool none the less.
I was thinking the guide guy was the master as well, it seems too obvious though as you say.. but also it seems pretty obvious... They both identified the sith master as a he though. "He collects people", "He's here". Either the Khalranaac(sp?) was already dead and Mae showing up to kill him was itself a test, or the Sith Master responded very quickly and was shadowing over her and the guide, or is the guide. Mae says "10minutes" thatta way more or less didn't she?
I liked the white/orange face jedi girls quote to Osha. "We aren't defined by what we lose, we are defined by what we survive"
At this point with Mae having already 'seen the light' now in episode 4, its going quickly and whats next? could be anything.,. I wanna guess maybe the idea is for the Sith Master have been using Mae as bait to actually get to Osha?
- Osha fell out of Order. They clearly don't want her back, she was even let down when she didn't get the invite to rejoin order proper when Sol invited her on this next trip, maybe there were troubling signs in her?
- Mae has not herself demonstrated MUCH Force strength. She's extremely well martially trained but uses any sense of power minimally. Even when she throws the dust storm to escape, her master just threw a concussive storm that knocked back 5 or more jedi. She's not very strongly trained yet but sent on these missions to kill Jedi Masters more so in a manipulative sort of way than with strength or power.
- Osha has been talking about some of her Force sensations returning.
- The Sithy is looking to capture Osha because she is the more potent of the 2 having already been trained as a jedi. Mae recieved no such jedi training. Osha turned dark can be a much more formidable apprentice?
There has been a twist per episode so far though..
Ep 1-2 Osha killing Jedi? No she has a twin who survived the incident. Some underlying issue with Jedi incident shown
Ep 3 Flashback of how Osha and Mae as children became separated through jedi intrusion on their life and their family/community destryoed, Jedi misguided deeds?
Ep 4 Mae sees that she is being used and manipulated and decides to turn herself in now knowing Osha alive
Sith guy revealed, is he guide/qimir? or if so how does the guide/qimir guy plug in to this because he gets a bit of screen time already to end up a write off?
Wookieepedia article on Qimir and Actor Manny Jacinto talks about how showrunner wrote the character with him in mind specifically and if he didn't accept it she would have rewritten the character. That seems like he is maybe somewhat enduring and important?
He seems to know a lot and even offers Mae lessons and observations on the jedi she's tasked with killing.
-
There's something about the pacing or the inconsistency in the acting that is irking me.
Mae seems all cool and mysterious in the first episode, when she kills a jedi, and then Osha sees some type of prophesy or vision that says Mae is alive, which at first, seemed like a message FROM Mae, but apparently wasn't, because Mae didn't know anything about it.
Osha hasn't had another vision since then, so ... it felt out of place
Jedi Wookiee? We saw him walking around, but never saw him do anything else. He's dead. So insignificant
Mae is too wishy-washy as "the acolyte" and Osha is too wishy-washy as the jedi-dropout. "She's my sister, but she's a murderer, but she's not my problem anymore" -
It's not clear what Osha's motivation is, or Mae's, or the jedi.
And it doesn't feel like it's part of the cliffhanger/mystery (like what really happened during the fire). It feels incomplete.
Also, the sith appearance - a bit too showy? It feels like that horror movie, where Dracula suddenly comes down from the sky. Is he trying to remain a secret, trying to kill the jedi, what?
A big outstanding question is what does it mean "kill a jedi without a weapon" - Apparently, that's very important to do. Because a weapon clearly includes any actual weapon, any form of violence, any tool or poison -including telling them they should drink poison to obtain forgiveness.
-
Does the Force count as a weapon? If no maybe that is point to force her to grow powers? To kill with her anger?
We are due another flashback episode to show the Fortress demise from another angle, what was the witches final act? We don't really see exactly how they are all laid out in Destiny. Just the Osha escpaing, seeing power core explode and the chaos, her and Mae confronting, walkway crumbles, Sol saves osha, Mae falls and the way. If Mae survived, maybe not all witches died? Osha is then on ventilator. Lots of unexplained about Fortress/Witches demise yet?
Qimir is noted as having been a smuggler, worked for Hutts and trader of unique items. Unique items sound Sith Artifacty!
The Master himself must already know that Mae was a twin and her sister was alive.. and dark side masters are never not using their apprentices.. always manipulation
The Acolyte is singular but there are twin sisters, what would point of separated twins be if not to bring them together? but then to separate them again with one as the acolyte and one either not or dead? hmm.
-
Agree, Med. Something about the pacing and dialog is throwing me off.
When Mae abandons her quest and wants to turn herself in, that may have been a natural progression after realizing Osha is alive, but it did not feel earned. We've only known the character for three episodes in the present and one flashback so we haven't invested enough as an audience and she hasn't been fleshed out enough as a character for that turn to land. It's like GoT all over again and we got to spend seasons with Dani before the turn and that still didn't feel fleshed out enough - even if it was a foregone conclusion, audiences need to see/feel the progression for them to buy it.
For the whole 'it broke canon' thing with the Sith being present even though in Episode 1 the Jedi were like the Sith haven't been around in ages - that I buy. The Jedi have now been established as unreliable narrators. Look how quickly Vernestra was ready to cover up the current situation by not alerting the high council. So, they may have believed the Sith have been dormant but that is only because any Jedi who may have encountered them could have covered it up so they wouldn't know and eventually what led to their overarching hubris and downfall. I know people are like they are supposed to be the good guys and heroes and such, and that is not to say they aren't in their own little minds, but what I do love about the newer projects is that they add depth to that heroic narrative. It's not so black and white, despite their rigid code. They will go to just as great of lengths in the name of peace which secures their dominant presence but there is a flip side to that. The Sith are simply more forthcoming about what they want and the methods through which they will go to obtain it.
I've heard the name Smilo Ren being thrown around for the Sith which cracks me up.
If it is Qimir then why those four particular Jedi as targets? Unless he is only using Mae and her vendetta for some grander purpose? She has a reason to hate them if she knows what really went down - if they allegedly came in peace offering a choice then took Osha through orchestrated force and left Mae to die. I would be pissed too. I would be even more pissed if I discovered Osha was actually taken and didn't die as Mae had believed which would have driven that darkness and thirst for revenge. If the Sith is manipulating Mae, outside of wanting to generally undermine the Jedi, I wonder what the motive may be. Exposure? Creating doubt and eventual mistrust? Perhaps a more personal connection? I ultimately wonder if the Sith is the apprentice and the true Master is one of the mothers in the coven. We saw Aniseya's body but that doesn't mean she was dead. Sol pulled Osha away before she could reach her so who knows? Mother Korril seemed more aggressive toward the Jedi, knowing they created life using the force. Heard an interesting theory the Sith showed them how to do it and the Jedi getting that close would have revealed them to still be active which we know they were but in secret.
I will still see how it plays out but the pacing is still bothering me.
Funny story, one of the few people I follow on YouTube has a SW channel, Ek, who has a very distinctive Canadian voice. My husband was watching a hockey recap during the playoffs this year and I was like, "Is that Ek?" And he was like, "How do you know Ek?" And I was like, "How do you know Ek?". Turns out, Ek is both a massive Star Wars and hockey fan and we'd both been watching his separate channels for different things. It's the small things that bind a relationship, I tell ya. :P
-
And last night, we got Cortosis armor :-)
-
We sure did! First time in canon, I believe since that originated in what is now considered legends. I know we've read about it and written about it but so cool to see it in live action.
Hats off to the choreography in this episode as that was quite action-packed.
Some thoughts...
The reveal - not shocking. What was shocking was those guns. I guess saber-wielding is good for delts and such.
Did not expect that level of massacre but they sure went there which lends itself to my theory that by the end of this the "Sith" may take out any Jedi with any knowledge of him and/or have it covered up by leadership so that by the time Ep 1 rolls around the Jedi Council are obscenely unaware - both of the growing Sith threat but also they are the ones who concealed it which led to their spectacular downfall.
Also, he never said he was a Sith only that the Jedi would reference someone like him as a Sith. If he doesn't consider him as such either he's not a fan of labels or is something else entirely. Still get a feeling he is the apprentice serving a master who has taken to fostering darkness in an acolyte.
The switch thing - not a bad plan as plans go, considering there is only one Jedi left on the hit list. That's one way to get close to one's target. However, wouldn't Sol sense this? I imagine her presence would not feel the same to him.
Lastly, lots of insinuation that the Jedi do bad things in the name of good. Curious to see what they actually did but also how the "Sith" is connected to it. Was it me or did he also seem to have a personal connection to it all? It would be strange for him to purely project on behalf of the twins but may be reading too deeply and he is trying to prove a larger, more insidious point about the Jedi.
-
There seem to be a lot of loose ends and questions left.
First is the obvious - we KNOW Sol and the jedi with him did something the night of the fire. He's repeatedly said he'll "explain everything" and he feels guilty about something. THIS was the central question for the first 3 episodes, but it was kind of forgotten during the last two. Seeing the jedi as less than perfect fits nicely with the stories we have going on now here. That they are blinded to their own internal problems helps explains what they don't know and their eventual downfall generations later. But the story-telling ...
Second, we learned in the first episode that there is an effort to curb use of the force outside of the jedi order. That seemed to be what Qimir was referring to. I actually hated the line that the jedi would call him a sith. SITH hasn't been defined, the word dark side hasn't been used. Whether he is actually a sith or not, it was a stupid line. It doesn't bother me that much that there might be a "sith" around now - I don't think it hurts the all sacred canon (everyone on this forum used or uses Legends material, which has been declared non-canon anyways).
Here's a few lines I think would have been better:
"I'm what the jedi fear - someone not under their control"
Or more fleshed out:
"I'm like you. I have the force at my side. But unlike you, and your jedi, I see the full power of the Force. Generations ago, my people were cast out by the jedi centuries ago for daring to have ambition, for daring to use their power. Your history books would call them sith, wielders of the dark side of the force. And their knowledge has been passed down, generation to generation, master to apprentice (((or master to acolyte)), until me. You think I am the bad guy, but your self-righteousness is undeserved. You and your jedi are just as ambitious, just as power hungry, as me. I just don't pretend, like you do"
It's stil rubbing me the wrong way, the pacing, the dialogue. I feel like there is a good story here, but they are either rushing to tell it, or just assume certain knowledge, or don't care what we don't know. Even if there was a "big reveal" at the end, I don't think it will necessarily be earned.
-
I think maybe it's all been intentionally kind of clumsy to this point. The nod to it being
When Qimir asked Mae, paraphrase when he's choke holding her, "didn't you know the whole time it was me? deep down in there?"
Darth Q speaks of a history of persecution already by the jedi, if he is not tied to the Witches somehow maybe a hidden secret boy from the two mothers experiemnts at creating life, or somehow rescues mae as a girl yet from there? Or then he was part of another community of unorthodox force users who met the same fate at the hands of the Jedi perhaps? He doesn't claim the sith mantle himself, so he just sees himself as a renegade using the force according to his rules. But how did he get so powerful in hiding up until now if he does not himself have a Master?
He calls Jecki, 'It' right after he kills her. Is it just an insult and would have been said if she were human, or is it personal and because she was not? Or possibly he speaks of her as It as a Jedi. Later he snaps Yords neck pretty effortlessly That is some It treatment...
Going back now and watching Ep II where Osha/Jedi use him to trap Mae and he cooperates (now we know manipulates).makes him seem much more sinister. Is funny he says to them when the spring on him 'please don't do that memory wipe thing or whatever you do to me'. Is that an MIB reference or is there some other instance of jedi wiping memories of people in canon?
Is interesting when Sol asks him why risk revealing himself he says he wants a pupil. But he does not see himself as a Sith, sooo, why does he want a pupil if not to use a tool to help him acquire and grow his power on a galactic scale?
-
I liked this ep, although the pacing/scene cutting still kills me.
Some thoughts:
Love me some Star Wars critters. I told my husband I would have made friends with them and he was like oh you would not, you would have slipped on one of those rocks because you were wearing completely inappropriate shoes and screamed at the ocean and scared them away. Which, fair. He knows me pretty well.
If this aired on HBO that bathing scene would have been a hell of lot more exciting but I suppose we already got full-frontal with HotD this week so I forbear. This episode does a great job of outlining the 'seduction' aspect of the dark side. Anakin was "seduced" and not even that subtly but Qimir hits the right notes with Osha and you can see each one makes her consider things. Or reconsider them. I also think Osha would make a much better acolyte because Mae's motivation is so one-note. Osha has a lot of nuance to her grief and anger which makes her much more susceptible to exploitation and manipulation. Then, when she is in just the right place emotionally, she finds out what really happened on Brendok and boom - one dark side acolyte coming right up!
Hearing cortosis spoken aloud made me feel a certain kind of way. Gratifying, in some sense, because it is a EU/Legends concept, now made canon.
Sol just needs to spit it out. Whatever it is, and it is likely cringe and incriminating, he needs to unburden himself.
Is it just me or is Vernestra acting super sus? Lightwhip is cool but...Qimir's injuries don't look like saber slashes to me. And how old is he really? He implied "a very long time ago" but I suppose that is subjective. Is that like 20 years or 200 years? Still waiting on his former Jedi/Sith master to show up here any minute now...after we get a flashback to what really happened on Brendok.
Ultimately, all the concepts and characters are cool but I am struggling with the execution being as compelling as it could be (or I want it to be). However, I am open to the fact that there are many ways to tell a story and can appreciate that aspect despite anything else.
-
Totally agree - I liked the scenes with Qimir and Osha in this episode.
The breathing in the mask had a nice touch of ominous/foreboding recall. I haven't decided if it was too over the top, or just right.
My biggest problem is we don't really know enough about Osha (or Mae) to understand that anger. We know Osha left the Jedi, but her supposed "failure" is unclear, so her anger at said failure is unclear as well
Yay cortosis!
And good call - that mark on Qimir's back looks more like a whip mark than a saber blade mark.
I can't stand Sol. Agree - just spit it out already. The show is too purposefully holding off the answer to what really happened, and it ruins so much, being so forced.
Because, by the time they tell us the answer, I think we'll stop caring.
-
Is the whole series a canon confirmation though or do any of the characters have greater and longer significance to the later story beyond a historically far removed feeler?
The twins being Born of the Force should ultimately have some unique story value still, otherwise that is a completely wasted major point.
But also by Qimir saying "a very long time ago", this to me feels like a tie somehow to the Darth Plagueis tale.
wookiee canon tab
"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life. He had such a knowledge of the dark side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying."―Sheev Palpatine
wookiee canon tab
While training Sidious, Plagueis taught him that two Sith were required for their perilous machinations. So, if they worked together in accordance to the [color=var(--theme-link-color)]Rule of Two (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two)[/iurl], with one of them serving as a bait for the [color=var(--theme-link-color)]dark side of the Force[/color] (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_side_of_the_Force) and the other as a vessel, they would succeed in acquiring the ability to harness the full power of the dark side and rule immortal for ten thousand years.[color=var(--theme-link-color)][ (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis#cite_note-Tarkin-8)[/iurl][/font][/size][/color][/font][/size][/color]
Qimir calling for Power of Two as opposed to Rule of Two is maybe something different then. Reading through some Wookiee articles I got on this one
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_dyad (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_dyad)
Seems like a good summary of everything thats going on at the grander level here.
But Sol needs to confess. Vernestras whip and Qimirs scar shape seem obvious link to come to the open.
But perhaps Osha and Mae come together to defeat Qimir and form Force Dyad. Jedi do some soul searching in after math, Sol goes on trial if not killed yet by Q, O or M. Probably in all their struggle he is first to go.
I dunno where the Qimir > Plagueis tie could come unelss Qimir has a master who is Plagueis.
Osha/Mae born of Force, "to create life" according to tale of plagueis, Qimirs "a very long time" and "The Power of Two" quotes. All the keys?
The bathing scenes sexuality was weird. Maybe it was just the camera work when he walks out and the cut off being so blatant yet implied presence. Also the line, "if you're not going to join me I'd like to put my clothes back on". It was kinda sloppy almost all together. Like too much like a real dude trying to get a woman naked in the water with him.
Give me some Han Leia ESB tension. Peak eroticism.
Most important take away: Bazil is still the best part of this so far.
-
Disney has destroyed Star Wars.
-
I dunno, Jar Jar and Vader having built C3PO and immaculate force conception and Greedo shooting first and Han being scared of Jabba but stepping on his tail because it gets kids laughing, that all happened under George's latter visions before the House The Mouse Built took the reigns.
The executive creators under disney have taken A LOT of inspiration from Legends as we all knew it and consumed and tons from the WEG books as well.
Dave Filoni is a fan who worked toward and got his fan dream job. I don't understand how anyone can openly consume Filoni wrttien material and feel wronged.
Andor was amazing. R1 was great movie and strong OT tie/vibe. Solo is aging well imo, I enjoy more every time I watch. Bad Batch is good. Ahsoka was cool. Obi Wan was decent. Mandalorian was of course a commercial hit and I thought it was good and the EU galaxy it depicted was sweet, just not my overall fav with the Mandalorian culture/struggle focus of the core.
Acolyte is ok. Though, I'm growing puzzled by the era choice to invest the time and money in to it when New Jedi Order movies with Rey will fill the same product marketing premise which is get more kids to want to be jedi. Im prejudiced anyway naturally that they went old history jedi stuff but used Marvels High Republic era inspiration instead of the old DH TOTJ stuff. It's a bad feeler for how awesome those could be in close screen adaptations
Episode 7-9 of The Saga, not so much a fan, I will go with you there- they ruined the OT arc, but by same token R1 and the diirect run in to OT was way better than I-III for the sake of OT Purity but ranking all later materials.
But this was all expected anyways when Disney acquired. There are some gems, take the good with bad.
-
Han shooting second destroyed a character. For one scene. Disney has destroyed Star Wars period.
It's only a matter of time before the hero saving the galaxy is a man with lipstick and breast implants. And a boyfriend.
I'm done with Disney, and I canceled Disney+.
-
Heeeyyyy - that sounds more like personal bias than anything else. What material harm would such a character or story cause you? Not all stories are for or about or representative of your experience. That's cool, other people's stories still have value despite not being something you connect with. But by all means, do you.
Both Lucas and Disney have taken questionable creative swings but that's par for the course and should be expected for any creators and their interpretations and evolution of the source material. Not everything has resonated with me and I remember thinking that during the "special edition" re-releases how silly some of it seemed. Still, then I remembered how much Yoda's introduction and messing with Luke/R2 made me giggle as a kid. That shit was a riot! So, some of it is meant to be silly. Some serious, redefining, or even intentionally nebulous in the creator's quest to tell a story.
However, re: unique story value. It's a huge universe and a sweeping timeline. Not everything needs to connect to something larger, in my opinion. That was kind of the fun with Mando - set within but its own story and journey with other elements influencing their motives/decisions. I do like it when things add context to what we thought we knew or believed, as many of the new (shows at least) have done. Andor is the most compelling thus far in my opinion. The tension in that is palpable which adds dimension to what it took to rebel against the Empire, not all of it good or even entirely honorable. I didn't really get into the Clone Wars animated stuff but respect it for filling in those blanks since actually a lot of shit happened during that time. Rumor is the legends/questionably cannon entity known as the Abeloth will appear in Ashoka S2 which could really dive deeply into the esoteric nature of the force and how it manifests/how others interact with it. I like darting into creative corridors for a little adventure.
What I do know, for better or worse, Lucasfilm was an investment and investment needs return - that's, like, the core tenant of business. So, while I appreciate different creators as fans who get to tell their story, there will always be influence by the powers that be to profit from it. But to the fans, inside or outside of SW, success isn't always measured by commercial success but instead by how it captures our attention and imagination in this concept we all love so much.
Wonder how the Acolyte will wrap things up but interested to see what Hedland and team are looking to impart with this offering.
-
Children's hospitals like Boston Children's perform double mastectomies on confused 14 and 15 year old girls who think they're boys when they're not and never will be. That is material harm, and it starts with a cult trying to add this **** to everything we watch. I'm not OK with doctors abusing human beings of any age, much less children. And I'm not OK with Disney telling kids it's normal and fun and cool. It's not normal and fun and cool. It's abusive AF.
-
Oof, big feelings!
I do not recall a character in this show, or any other Disney property, advocating for this or any other procedure. Acknowledging someone's existence or experience does not equate to coercing anyone to do anything. Besides, only one kind of story with only one kind of protagonist would be narratively boring. Variety is the spice, as they say. :-*
-
Children's hospitals like Boston Children's perform double mastectomies on confused 14 and 15 year old girls who think they're boys when they're not and never will be. That is material harm, and it starts with a cult trying to add this **** to everything we watch. I'm not OK with doctors abusing human beings of any age, much less children. And I'm not OK with Disney telling kids it's normal and fun and cool. It's not normal and fun and cool. It's abusive AF.
Entertaining the concept, what is the actual effect and outcome? on an individual and society level
Why is an issue relevant to 0.0001% of the citizen population so widely proliferated? No one who wouldn't already want to do this at any age is going to go down that path, and if they do well ok, so what. There are easily influenced simpletons walking around every town in this country that buy in to every pile of shit idea that fits their preconceived notions. Go ahead and do that shit if you think it will make you happy.
The matter is really simply in allowing people of all sorts to feel accepted not influence anyone one way or another.
Even the vast majority of non-straight folks are not interested in taking medication to change themselves or undergo surgical procedures. This is a tiny fraction of the alternate community even.
This is an invented crisis seized upon by the right to weaponize 'the future of your children and your childrens children'. The reality is this affects so marginally few people it matters absolutely zero to our daily lives or the future of our nation. It is a talking point and a place to hang or swat away a moral cap but doesn't matter for anything material unless you are part of the marginal fringe it really does affect, in which case, why not let them do their thing?
-
@Eidolon: If you're saying that doctors mutilating the F out of confused boys and girls' genitals is not the only problem in the U.S., you're obviously right, there are a lot of other problems too, like homelessness, human trafficking, etc. The list goes on and on.
But if you're saying it's not a problem because it only affects a small percentage of the population, I don't take your point. Something like one in every 500 Americans is homeless. That's only 0.2% of the population or 650,000 people or so out of a total population of ~ 330 million. But I don't think anyone disagrees that homelessness is a problem. More than 300,000 children in North America have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and that diagnosis is typically followed by puberty blockers, opposite sex hormones, and surgery for things like double mastectomies, genital mutilation, and even hysterectomies. Tens of thousands of children.
The difference between this problem and other problems is that everyone seems to agree that things like homelessness and human trafficking are a problem. But when it comes to mutilating the F out of confused children, suddenly they are not only OK with the abuse, they're celebrating it.
As for your question ("why not let them do their thing?"), I think you have to differentiate between adults and minors. As far as I'm concerned, it should be illegal for a doctor to mutilate the F out of any human being's genitals, of any age. Doctors are supposed to help people, not abuse them. But I hope you can at least see that children are not adults. Children cannot consent to irreversible destruction of their genitals and other irreversible damage that is being done to them.
@Syren: I respect the fact that you welcome dialogue rather than trying to shut it down. I think our country needs more people like you in both parties who know that talking to each other about complex things (whatever the issue is) is the right way to go, not refusing to listen to people with different views. That said, I think it's wrong to promote LGBT content to kids, and I stand by that.
-
I'm saying its inflated in to a large societal dilemma when it doesn't affect the vast majority of us at any age. It's weaponized as an ideology when I don't think promoting acceptance of diversity is an ideology so much as basic human decency.
When percent of the 300k you cite (google says 121k per Reuters investgation from 2017-2021 published oct 2022) are happy with the outcome of their treatments vs those who feel duped or wronged? That would be the more telling statistics I think.
I just don't buy in to the idea that if you show a straight kid enough gay material they will start experimenting with gay ideas and acts. I mean we've probably all known a gay kid that was not self-aware yet right? So is the right course of action to shame the feminine tendancies out of them or to let them do them and make them strong confident individuals?
Homelessness is a blight problem but beyond that, what are you supposed to do about people choosing to do drugs before paying their bills or not knowing how to manage their finances and mortgaging homes they'll never be able to sustain on or not being able to conform and work a job at all? There are plenty of good paying jobs for people who want them.
-
About homelessness, I think there is a lot more that can be done, but I don't want to get off topic.
For argument's sake, even if you could say "what are you supposed to do about people choosing to do drugs instead of paying their bills?" or something, I think if you ask the same question about abusing confused kids -- "what are you supposed to do about people mutilating the F out of confused kids' genitals?" -- the answer is simple: don't mutilate the F out of confused kids' genitals, don't celebrate the idea of mutilating the F out of confused kids' genitals, make it illegal to mutilate the F out of confused kids' genitals. Love them and protect them.
These are vulnerable children, and we're talking about sterilizing them, mutilating their bodies, and making them lifelong medical patients. It's evil.
-
Discussion is good - in life and democracy.
However, this may not be the best venue for this discussion. I would question the use of the word 'promote' as that and others have been tactfully employed whenever anyone appears in a medium others take issue with. I will say, again, that acknowledgment of someone's existence or experience - through a character or storyline - does not necessarily mean a creator or corporate conglomerate is advocating for or against anything. The inclusion of different types of stories with various types of characters is generally a good thing as it adds depth and perspective. Exposure to such things does not influence who someone ultimately becomes but can make traditionally marginalized or maligned groups feel seen and heard through tales and adventures that include people like them. I am sure we can all agree that has been true for us at some point in our lives. On the corporate side, appealing to emerging audiences and demographics is a valid business strategy and one that has lucrative potential. It's not even a new concept as companies have been at it for years. If it doesn't appeal to you, don't watch it. If you don't like it, don't do it/don't buy it. Not everything is for or about you. There is something to be said for recognizing something that doesn't resonate with you and letting it be.
But, let us get back to the purpose of this thread: The Acolyte.
With this latest episode, I heard echoes of Obi-Wan's words in my head: "...from a certain point of view."
After all, motives are driven, in part, by one's perceptions and experiences. There was, from what I gather, an inference to High Republic canon, e.g., the hyperspace disaster (in which Vernestra lost her master in, I believe) which led the Jedi to this world. From there, a lot of assumptions are made - from all parties - which lead to the titular choices.
Some thoughts:
Sol seems weirdly drawn to Osha. I mean, sure, he doesn't have a padawan but do they tell us why? Maybe he's a creeper or, more likely, struggles with attachment issues which manifests with Osha almost like an obsession. Having a padawan is probs a bad idea if he gets so bent emotionally - could be things from his own past he cannot let go of or is trying to compensate for and the council is like, no, bro. As far as getting her to leave with them, he sees what he wants to see and acts accordingly which leads to his killing Mother Aniseya. It could be interpreted as defense since it may have been unclear what she was doing but still seemed rather rash for the Jedi. Also, he previously said he watched Mae fall when in reality, he let her fall to save Osha. Certain points of view and all. He was so convinced they were in danger (Mae mentioning the whole sacrifice thing didn't help) but they acted without ascertaining first and failed to show any restraint that would prevent violence or loss of life. The Jedi were messy af here.
Force possession? Here for it. That manifestation of power was badass.
Indara is powerful, so much so that she decimates the coven via the psychic link while trying to save Kelnacca. Wild. Her willingness to obscure the truth about what happened certainly lends to the theory that the Jedi are their own worst enemies and likely why they were so unprepared for literally anything. Their own ranks were covering shit up left and right over the years to spare their reputation and justify their methods. Hate padawan Torbin (Oh, Tommen) but Indara is the team leader and showed a spectacular lack of control over the group.
Mother Korril was definitely an instigator here - also based on assumptions and point of view - but did we see her body? Is homegirl still around? Did she train The Stranger?
Once Osha finds out the truth, to the dark side she will fall!
Lastly, not sure they can wrap this up in a single episode in a satisfying way given how disjointed the execution has felt (at least to me) across the season. I do like the comparisons between ep 3 and ep 7 but unsure spending two episodes on flashbacks without a stronger present-day story anchor was the wisest creative choice - but willing to see how they cap it off.
-
"kids genitals" is now part of the SWSF algorithim for search returns. Thanks Sev =P
Episode 7 was good standalone tale and to tighten the story up even, the jedi masters dispositions and actions when confronted by Mae or their circumstances (Kalnaccas isolation) are all entirely clarified. Cool we got to see the survey team beginning of it all and the Vergance investigation explanation. Hyperspace Disaster ref egg was sweet.
Who knows Sols background. Individuals give up every other natural instinctual life path to become Jedi, they can't have families, the whole Jedi focus on indoctrinating Children is even more interesting in that context, they can't have families, so sometimes they have to destroy other families to make theirs. Whaaaaat.
Sols perceived fixation on the twins in that light could be a little cleaner. But he was the first to see the twins in woods and that was quite unexpected and he saw what he perceived to be abuse on a couple instances, so he felt compelled to 'save' them in his way.
The full story of the Brendok coven is interesting. I was glad to see all the other witches have personality and their own desires and wills. The vergance that drew the jedi there likely drew them there? Or were they part of the vergance that caused all the life, that would make sense since they created human life with the force as well..
EDIT
After a second watch, wow. What a collapse of team cohesion for both the Jedi Team and the Coven, with disastrous outcome. Intentional or not, part of the story here is the corruptive nature of ALL Force Use.
We need a Midichlorian Inquisition! Stomp out ALL practitioners of these foul arts manipulating the fabric of natural balance.
Anyone notice the credits song? the hook references, "Power of Two". No idea who it is or what genre it really qualifies as but was just of tickling note.
-
I liked the closing credits song although there were complaints the "modern" choice took them out of the SW universe. I thought it worked well but did go against the typical which can be refreshing.
Everyone was a mess in this! So many actions are based on incomplete information and assumptions. On rewatch, I blamed Indara less (for the mission overall) and felt more anger toward Sol and Torbin, since they were constantly undermining her with their bullshit. I still think her glazing over their part in what happened is part of their overarching issue as an order. They want to do right but don't want to look bad doing it? Fighting for justice is going to earn you some enemies but, judging by their interactions with politicians, I see they must navigate that delicately to build a coalition for support. Like all things political, that can be manipulated and/or bought.
Something else that popped for me - we never saw Indara's conversation with the council. If they were like, stop messing with them kiddos and leave them alone then show up with one, wtf? Either she never spoke to them and unilaterally vetoed their dumb plan or she and Vernestra (who is tied to the hyperspace disaster and all fallout from it) plotted to keep that vergance under wraps.
I also saw someone reference a quote from the Jedi early in the season - do not believe your eyes, they can deceive you. This could all be intentional misdirect to reinforce the point that what we see and/or believe is not always founded upon solid ground.
-
thats interesting some cite the removal from SW feeling- It didn't take me out of SW story but the modernity kind of made me think of Andor, could easily be playing in back ground somewhere he shows up in some public venue to meet a contact.
Indara- when they have escaped to the ship at the end and Osha is on oxygen, Indara cuts in to them fairly deep I thought, blaming the whole debacle on Sol and Torbs.
I'm struggling with whether Torb or Sol is the weaker link that doomed the team. Torb is the inlet in the confrontation but Sol creates the circumstance to begin with.
Leave Twins Alone! - I would lean more towards a calculated decision by Vernestra to keep a lid on it? The idea that it didn't happen and was simnply Indaras lie of necessity seems too far removed from the need of plot links yet.
"Do not believe your eyes, they can decieve you" - There's hope yet that Qimir is a Muun and actually Plageuis =D or Plagueis being his hidden master..
-
I came here to read thoughts...
And found talking about politics.
-sigh-
-
Huh - they actually tied that together better than I thought they would.
Some thoughts:
If they are the same then both could technically be the Acolyte singular. That same principle could be applied to killing a Jedi without a weapon. The task would have been considered complete regardless of which one did it. I found it satisfying to watch Osha give in as she could not process all that grief and rage - Sol may have said he was doing the right thing but carrying guilt, which those four Jedi clearly did, says otherwise. He got what was coming to him, in my opinion. They all did.
What up, Darth P?! At this point, he would have still been Tenebrous's apprentice, no? Seemingly looking for his own as Qimir is looking for an acolyte. We know Sideous had several apprentices, trying them all on (i.e. manipulating them) to fit different situations until Anakin was ready to go. Would stand to reason that others would shop around as well, seeing which apprentice fit their means best. The vibe I got here (aside from the rule of two thing) is that the Sith are lonely and while they seek someone to teach/train, it also reads as a need for companionship/connection/attachment...something they will eventually destroy.
Figured they would pin this on Sol but did not expect Vernestra to lean into that shit so heavily or methodically. Spinning that story to the Senators was cold-blooded but apparently necessary to maintain their positions of reverence and power. That senator called them out though, the dangers of hero worship, a real 'who's watching the watchmen' moment. That 'certain point of view' statement has far-reaching implications for them as they believe they are doing what they must in the name of order and justice...not realizing they are equally morally compromised and hypocritical since they are now very obviously attached to their power and legacy. Tsk, tsk.
The Qimir conundrum. A former pupil, that much was stated but, anyone else find the interaction between Vernestra and dead Sol a bit...intimate? Could Qimir be not only a pupil but a son? She is significantly older than she looks and Qimir did imply he was as well. I dunno, I got vibes there.
Osha giving up Mae and accepting Qimir's offer to be trained landed for me. Through him, she sees a way to channel those emotions and the turn feels earned because she had been operating on incomplete information her whole life. Mae knew the truth and was, in some ways, used to turn Osha, leading her to this conclusion.
Lastly, Yoda. If this is meant to imply that Vernestra goes to him with this and he helps conceal it then he would be just as complicit in the Jedi's fate all those years later. The fallen pupil turned to evil is a pretty big thread although perhaps "fallen" may not necessarily equate to becoming a Sith in their eyes, considering they were believed nonexistent. Either she lies to Yoda as well or this adds a much more nefarious layer to the Jedi's motives throughout the High Republic leading into their fall and return of the Sith.
While the season felt choppy and uncertain at times, the last episode finally hit the right notes (acting, pacing, etc.) which could serve as both a contained story or setup for further adventures.
-
So my friends and I watched this together.
I am very conflicted by many things related to this.
First and foremost. I enjoyed the series overall but felt this episode was meh.
Secondly, I feel like the Jedi come off as the bad guys. I am happy about this. They aren't good all the time.
Overall I am here for it. Give me more Star Wars, more often.
-
Another thing I wonder...who was Vernestra speaking to on the com in that conference room? Sounded sus. She did say it was highly unorthodox. Could she have been summoning Master Yoda? Or plotting with someone else?
As many things as I am delighted to see brought to life, nothing compares (yet) to the last 4 minutes of R1. I had spent my whole life up to that point wondering where she was coming from, knowing that we (the audience) began in the middle of a story. We were missing context and perspective. Rewatching it still gives me chills every single time.
-
Agreed 1000% Ep 8 tied everything together nicely but also clearly laid out the whole point of the series in concept and tie in to the larger saga with reveal of Plagueis watching on from cave. Very satisfying ending of the immediate story and set up for the unresolved. Acolyte is part of the Plagueis story and thereby part of Sidious' and Skywalkers'.
I dunno about a broad feel but my news feed "buzz" on Acolyte after end of S1 immediately flipped from how terrible it was getting reviewed to how immediate the demand for S2 was.
Sols demise was very pleasing. What a great turning point for Osha. She killed a sociopath who murdered her mother and manipulated her to live an utter lie. The darkside doesn't get any greyer than that, yet the company we keep..
S2 is all but assured with that Plagueis reveal. It was much bigger and more important to the ultimate plot than the Yoda tease.
Acolyte Favs
Character - Bazil the Tynnan Tracker
Moment - Plagueis reveal duh
Final Acolyte S1 Note:
Sol was a terrible Jedi. Vernestra is not looking great so far either.
Andor S2, Ahsoka S2, Acolyte S2. The futures so bright, I gotta wear shaaades.
I just rewatched Ahsoka this past weekend. Already enjoyed but opinion greatly improved. Was supposed to be building a LEGO castle but was too captivated.
Also rewatched R1 this past weekend. Agree that the final moments are apex.
Fav Series Overall: Andor
Fav Movie: Solo
Fav Moment: R1 Final Moment Vader Rampage to Leia "Hope" Reveal
Fav Character or Group: Syril and Dedra OR Gorian Shards Pirate Gang and ship from Mando S3
Of note, seeing Thrawn in Ahsoka was not as wildly awesome as I had imagined it might have been. It was well done and cool but just didn't occupy the place in my heart compared to some other things.
The Ahsoka Rewatch brought some interesting tie ins with some of the stuffin Acolyte..
when Elsbeth recieves the gift from the Great Mothers, 'the gift of shadows' or something they call it, her eyes turn solid glazed black
when Mother Aniseya takes Torbins mind his eyes go solid glazed black
when Qimir tries to help Osha remove the mask, his eyes go solid glazed black
implying a mingling of the powers/knowledge of the force of all three sources